this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2023
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[–] blackn1ght@feddit.uk 4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Edit: We actually give a shit about all the Ukrainian people being thrown into a fucking meat grinder. We care about their lives. The people who just say “more weapons to Ukraine!” do not give a shit about the lives of the people there. They’re happy to just let the war keep dragging on until the last capable Ukrainian is dead. An example of how WE feel about the tragedy of the situation: https://hexbear.net/post/503747 (hexbear link to a lemmygrad news post)

So be fucking outraged then that Russia started, and is continuing this war. They're the ones killing Ukrainians in their homeland.

A comment from that link:

Omg, it's a full on genocide of Ukrainian people. Just damm the Western libs.... Fuck this planet.

Russia is committing genocide. They've been raping and killing civilians since the start, this is where your anger and energy needs to be. Imagine being outraged at the nation defending itself from genocide, and those countries that are sending the tools that they're being asked for to help defend themselves.

[–] 420blazeit69@hexbear.net 30 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They've been raping and killing civilians since the start

You know this is not genocide, right?

You are describing war crimes. War crimes are horrible. Two rapes are two rapes too many. Every side in every war does them, which is a major reason war is so horrific. Genocide is much more than a series of war crimes, though. To believe otherwise is to declare all sides in all wars genocidal, rendering the word meaningless.

[–] blackn1ght@feddit.uk 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They're kidnapping Ukrainian children and trying to "re-educate" them, and given Russian soldiers have had specific orders to "kill everyone" from commanders, and video evidence of random civilians being targeted and killed, I can't really think what else is could be? Seems like they're trying to eradicate the Ukrainian people and their culture.

[–] 420blazeit69@hexbear.net 24 points 1 year ago (9 children)

They're kidnapping Ukrainian children and trying to "re-educate" them

Let's start with a source for this one. I've seen nothing akin to the indigenous boarding schools ran by the U.S. and Canada in actual campaigns to destroy a people's collective identity. What I have seen are reports of children whose parents are not available/alive to take care of them (a fact of any war) and Russia putting them in school and/or up for adoption (something any state would do).

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[–] radiofreeval@hexbear.net 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You realize more fighting and more weapons doesn't magicly win territory? It's war, to continue fighting means killing more people and destroying more lives. The fighting needs to stop as soon as possible, one way or another or the whole country will end up like Bakmuht.

[–] blackn1ght@feddit.uk 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

So your answer is to let an aggressor nation just happily steamroll through any country it pleases? Because down to this logic, any nation that decides to defend their homeland just cause needless bloodshed. No fighting = no deaths, but the aggressor can literally just waltz in and take whatever it wants.

The fighting needs to stop as soon as possible

Agreed. Every effort needs to make sure Russia leaves Ukraine ASAP. Ideally without any more deaths. But unfortunately as long as Russia continues this pointless act of imperialism, then the death toll will rise.

[–] radiofreeval@hexbear.net 24 points 1 year ago (3 children)

So your answer is to keep the meatgrinder running for as long as possible? Sure, countless Ukrainians and Russians are dying, but at least the lines on the map don't change.

[–] CamaradeBoina@hexbear.net 9 points 1 year ago

No the real answer is these people somehow think their constant egging on escalation instead of some sort of diplomatic resolution, won't eventually lead inevitably to the war escaping its proxy status and evolve into a REAL inter-imperialist direct confrontation with all of what it implies (it implies nukes)

[–] blackn1ght@feddit.uk 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If Ukraine wants to remain a sovereign nation and retain its land, then what alternative does it have? I don't think any nation in their right mind would happily let an invader just attack without putting up a defence.

Russia themselves threw millions of men into the meat grinder to defeat the Nazis and so did the allies. So did the north Vietnamese against the US. It's tragic, but it's it's unfortunately the reality when there's bad actors that invade other nations.

[–] AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You think nazis are in this case the good actors because the genocide they were busy with got interrupted by an invader invited by the people you wanted killed off to protect them?

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[–] AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

So your answer is to let an aggressor nation just happily steamroll through any country it pleases?

You were happy enough to let Ukraine commit genocide until an 'aggressor' stopped it

Every effort needs to make sure Russia leaves Ukraine ASAP

So enlist. They're out of warm bodies to throw at minefields and artillery kill zones. Instead of being so bloodthirsty with other people's lives, put yours at risk.

Why do you deserve to live if you want other people to die for your cause? Go die for your own cause. Go die with the rest of your nazi comrades.

[–] blackn1ght@feddit.uk 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You were happy enough to let Ukraine commit genocide until an 'aggressor' stopped it

No? Let's not forget that Russia massively exaggerated the numbers this, whilst simultaneously also committing atrocities themselves, and then severely ramped it up in the invasion. It hasn't stopped, it's got significantly worse.

Why don't you go to Putin and ask him to pull out of Ukraine? Or go protest the war in Russia and build momentum to get the population to protest?

Go die with the rest of your nazi comrades.

Of course, you see all Ukrainians as Nazis. Explains why you're so eager for Ukraine to roll over so Russia can come in take over the country and eradicate Ukraine and it's culture.

[–] AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Let's not forget that Russia massively exaggerated the numbers

"we were only doing a little genocide"

whilst

cringe

and then severely ramped it up in the invasion

Not after the invasion. After Ukraine reacted to its situation turning hopeless by turning to terrorist tactics like bombing civilian bridges during rush hour.

Why don't you go to Putin and ask him to pull out of Ukraine?

Because unlike you I don't wish for the genocide to continue until it's successful.

Of course, you see all Ukrainians as Nazis.

No. Just the ones who took power in 2014 and have since made it illegal to oppose them politically while making national holidays out of WW2 nazi heroes. The ones you keep photographing with their nazi tattoos because you somehow can't find all the good Ukrainians who aren't sporting them.

It's a nazi country. It's run by and run for nazis. You're defending them knowing this full well. You're covering for them. That's why I call them your comrades. You're a nazi by action.

Explains why you're so eager for Ukraine to roll over so Russia can come in take over the country and eradicate Ukraine and it's culture.

Typical nazi rhetoric: either you let us purge anyone not like us or you're doing oppressing us.

To say nothing of how fucking ignorant you are of the entire geopolitics around the war to say something so fucking stupid as to not even know why Russia is fighting. Shut the fuck up if you don't know anything. Sophomoric linguistic punch-ups like 'whilst' do absolutely fucking nothing to mask the fact that you're talking out of your ass.

[–] blackn1ght@feddit.uk 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's it, keep trying to discredit me by calling me a Nazi while you push your Kremlin propaganda.

It's a nazi country. It's run by and run for nazis. You're defending them knowing this full well.

More Russian myths.

[–] AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)
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[–] Clippy@hexbear.net 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Gaddafi's troops are committing rape to children en masse, they have issued viagra to mass rape people since the start. this is where your anger and energy need to be. Imagine being outraged at the nation defending itself from mass rape, and those countries that are sending the tools that they're being asked for to help defend themselves.

[–] Gsus4@feddit.nl 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Here is the UN mandate to intervene in Lybia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973 a resolution drafted by Tunisia and supported by the African Union, the Arab League and allowed by all of the UNSC.

Where is russia's UN mandate to annex Crimea and to later bomb Kiev? Did they even try?

[–] TankieTanuki@hexbear.net 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The Lybian war was started on lies and shattered the country so I don't care if it was "legal". Diplomatic routes in Ukraine were tried (e.g. the Minsk Agreements) but broken by Kiev. The Crimean people overwhelmingly supported the annexation.

[–] Gsus4@feddit.nl 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

That's all lies again too, man, but this time russia is arresting or killing anyone who dares to tell the truth.

[–] TankieTanuki@hexbear.net 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] Gsus4@feddit.nl 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, once you've invaded a territory it's hard to assess, but it's a fact that they violated Ukraine's borders to add to their territory twice now.

International law matters here, because invading parts of other countries leads us back to 1914: you sacrifice the peasantry and treasury, but the "empire" is rewarded with territory gains for the history books, this influences military calculus so that wars become more likely if the trend catches on.

You are not free to speak your mind in russia and the government has not earned a reputation for telling the truth at any point since 2014.

[–] AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

International law matters here

Only EXTREMELY selectively

Because you don't think international law matters when your side breaks multiple international treaties

You don't think international law matters when your side is committing genocide.

You only think it matters when the guys who stole Hillary's election (they didn't) are the bad guys on CNN

It only matters when someone you call an enemy reacts to all of your international law breaking

You don't give a shit about international law. It's just convenient ammo to argue for what you want sometimes.

[–] Clippy@hexbear.net 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

honestly i appreciate you attempting to engage this - truthfully, i find the entire premise of appealing to morality in a war fruitless, and my intentions in making the statement above was to imitate that this is a effect that has been repeated for many generations (whether or not it is true).

ultimately people do things to advance their own goals & stamp out contradictions, not on the basis of morality.

this attempt to say this is moral and that isn't could go on until the next generation of soldiers is born - and it would be pointless because the narrative accepted will often be the media machine with the biggest wallet until some massive contradiction.

ultimately what are your goals here, what are the perspective of the shoes of the russians and the ukrainians, what is the context etc.

perhaps it's as simply resolved as the issue of the jupiter missles, or perhaps peace was never going to be a option(from your stance of the "russian imperialists" or my stance that the American west desire to remain a world power).

truthfully i am of the opinion the americans seeks to remain a world power [hence the 800 military bases around the world vs the russians 21], and will take advantage of any conflict to pose as the morally high ground in a "just war", or proxy war in this case.

i don't think peace was ever an option, russia most likely sees ukraine as a staging ground for nato as it did in operation Barbarossa, or napoleon, or seeks minerals, or believes the new government is too nationalist for their own taste (why does it have to be one point?)

all that matters is that is a war to extinguish contradictions that pose existential threats, another form of competition for capital.

[–] Gsus4@feddit.nl 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I did not appeal to morality, I stated the fact that the decision to helping the rebels in Lybia took into account every regional player given what we knew at the time. And even in that case it was counterproductive in hindsight.

Following international law is not about morality, it's about being able to vaguely know what you can count on and possible consequences when you perform a military calculation or a geopolitical move.

If everyone just takes what they can get away with regardless of others' interests, the future will just be a series of Iraq and Ukraine wars all over the world, particularly in Africa, Europe and Asia.

[–] Clippy@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago

I did not appeal to morality, I stated the fact that the decision to helping the rebels in Lybia took into account every regional player given what we knew at the time. And even in that case it was counterproductive in hindsight.

i acknowledge this, i have no desire to struggle for the trough.

Following international law is not about morality, it's about being able to vaguely know what you can count on and possible consequences when you perform a military calculation or a geopolitical move.

to follow law and order for the sake of law and order, you will find these rules tend to favour the well established, powerful and often rich governments. just like it once was deemed that to attack kings was deem sinful for they conversed with god. the rich and powerful will write laws that benefit them, while maneuvering around them with ease to cripple/destroy their enemies/threats.

the material reality on ground matters immensely, and we the west seek to capitalize on this opportunity (in the ukraine) to liquidate our enemies where ever, whenever possible.

If everyone just takes what they can get away with regardless of others' interests, the future will just be a series of Iraq and Ukraine wars all over the world, particularly in Africa, Europe and Asia.

my friend, we will live to see many more wars, there are contradictions grander than this, (see ipcc report) - and i assure you, we will be portrayed as the good guys, with hollywood movies on how our soldiers going overseas to do these wars made us feel sad.

[–] AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago

the decision to helping the rebels in Lybia took into account every regional player given what we knew at the time

Russia decided to help the rebels in Ukraine because they were being targeted for ethnic cleansing and asked for help explicitly

[–] CamaradeBoina@hexbear.net 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Libya today is a haven for islamic terrorism and slaver markets. Regardless of the "legality" of the NATO (mostly french and US led) intervention, it threw the entire region in outright chaos, and was enormously damaging to the working class of Lybia, but also of the entire fucking Sahel.

[–] Gsus4@feddit.nl 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yea, in hindsight it would have been better to just let him crack down on the population to keep stability in the region, but with the information we had at the time, most African and Arab neighbours agreed that helping the rebels with a no-fly zond would be better than not to, since the civil war was going to start anyway. You don't care about legality, but that is not the point. The point is that this was not unilateral, like Iraq, and even then military interventions can go terribly wrong.

[–] fuckiforgotmypasswor@hexbear.net 9 points 1 year ago (15 children)

So be fucking outraged then that Russia started and is continuing this war

its so weird that the day the tanks rolled over the border of Ukraine history magically just began, there was no material reality prior to this event, or any geopolitical events of consequence we could connect to this outcome, certainly none that had to do with openly threatening to expand a hostile military alliance with supersonic and nuclear missiles 5 minutes from the capital city of Moscow

i wonder if the US has ever done the exact same thing in the name of national security and what the NATO heads said about it then

every pro NATO take is certified baby brain shit that demonstrates nothing but a lack of understanding of material reality, history, geopolitics, on top of an absolute disregard for human life, gross hypocrisy and a level of false outrage that is always directly proportional to how loudly they're calling to escalate bloodshed

Russia is committing genocide. "So do the humanitarian thing and send depleted uranium shells to this warzone. Slava Ukraini!!!!!!"

log off dude

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