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this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2023
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I was reading about how carbon capture from the air is going to be a trillion dollar industry. Just SMH. It’s so much easier to not emit than it is to recapture. But since we’ll never get China and India off of coal, I guess we have to do something.
This is a bad and uninformed take.
Source
And that's without even going back to look at imperialism and its impacts on those countries, and why they're now having to play catch up with the west (who not only did our fair share of polluting during our own industrial revolutions, but still continue to do so pretty much freely), mostly to provide for the west.
This, like the overpopulation myth, are nothing more than racist distractions created by the rich and powerful to get us to blame "others" rather than look for who is really at fault - them (Edit to clarify: and by them I mean all obscenely rich and the governments they control, faux communists included).
Whenever someone says "we'll never get China off coal" I just pretend I read "we'll never get the west off oil". Saves me a lot of irritation.
I might try that, since trying to engage with those replies only leads to even greater frustration..
You may be surprised to learn that I totally agree with you. In my extremely brief statement I did not treat the nuances of this issue. I think the developing world has every moral right to pursue the same industrialization path as western nations have. I believe our world economy is driving their coal usage. I believe they are still relatively small as a contributor on a per capita basis.
However I also believe that they have less ability to transition to renewables and I expect them to pursue their right to lift their populations out of poverty. And so: we’re never going to get them off coal. With their huge populations, they will inevitably be top contributors as this process progresses. Therefore, we need to focus on mitigations as well as renewables, since this massive set of emissions appears to be non negotiable, and in fact we’d be hypocrites to try, as you point out. I would consider active mitigations the moral obligation of the developed world, and in fact that’s where air capture efforts are mainly occurring.
This isn’t racism, and playing that card in the face of these simple facts is a great way to get nowhere with the issue.
We're never going to "get them" off coal because we keep weaselling out of providing them with the support to do so after centuries of exploiting their people and resources for profits the size of which we can't even comprehend, not because of the size of their population, and not because they're top contributors, because as stated, neither of those are even true.
What we need to focus on is the fact that this is a global problem and that shirking and shifting responsibility to others only gains those making the profit more time to make more profit. We all breath the same goddamned air, and pretending like there are "us" and "them" in this mess is ridiculous beyond words.
As for that last part - no one is "playing a card" (seriously??), and while your intent might not be racist, the trope you are using, and its impact, are. You not being aware of this fact (or comfortable with it now that you are) doesn't change it.
Okay I can tell you’re red hot to defend your narrative. Sorry for making it harder for you.
Lmfao, sure, if that makes you feel better about your shitty take...
Developing nations have an easier path to renewables. There is less resistance in building new infrastructure than in modifying existing infrastructure. You don’t have to deal with hundred year old equipment when you start with modern equipment.
The developed world owes its advanced state to the use of resources from the undeveloped world and damage to the shared environment.
The developed world should supply non fossil fuel power sources to the undeveloped world, as an investment in a cleaner future and a reparation payment.
Renewables might be able to handle the lesser load initially for developing areas, while small scale thorium or fusion reactors could be future high power options.
It's difficult to get China and India off coal because they're doing most of the world's manufacturing and some processes are currently impossible without it. But 'we' exported manufacturing to Asia and 'we' buy the products the coal is used for. 'We' don't get to wriggle out of responsibility by pretending that a couple of low and middle income countries are somehow responsible for 'our' excessive consumption.
They're also far more "off coal" already than most of the west, and their renewable generation is growing far faster than the coal.
Yeah, we can 100% blame 'outsourcing to China' for that fuckup. Actually, we can kinda blame greedy shareholders.
Not emitting is not that easy. We are in a transition period at the moment. Electric vehicles are here but we don't have all the infrastructure needed to support them. Let alone the fact that battery tech is not developing as fast as we need it to.
Right now liquid fuels still have the advantage of greater energy density. If we could move to hydrogen fuels that would be cool, and we could repurpose existing petroleum facilities.
But who knows which way the tech is going to go. The only sure thing is that we are in for a wild ride one way or the other.
Western countries are just as guilty, if not more. We contributed terribly for several hundred years, and still today net carbon use is still increasing in developed countries. It's just not increasing quite as much as before.
Yeah historically the United States has admitted the most carbon of any country to date. Other countries are having their industrial revolutions and we are hypocrites for criticizing them.
China's usage of coal is huge, but it's proportiojn has dropped from 75+% in 1990 to around 55%. It's slow progress - it may accelerate. The problem is the rest of the world exports so much of its manufacturing requirements to China.
China is actively encouraging that aka temu
Asking other countries to get off coal and blaming them for climate change is the most entitled wicked shit Western countries do. Yeah we looted you, fucked you over and tried dismantling your democracy for years. Oh we also polluted the world like it is today because of our greedy ways and sold our soul to fossil fuel companies.. but you stay poor and don't use your resources to develop yourself.
Other problems with your post aside, you think it's good enough to emit less but not worth it to actively invest in getting the excess carbons out? The problems they are solving overlap, but they are not the same set of problems.
Emitting less is possible NOW. Removing carbon already in the air isn't even possible yet. ClimateTown showed this in a recent vid. All efforts should be towards what's possible and effective now rather than towards what's really expensive, not very effective and may may be possible in the future.
What you said is the equivalence of putting all the eggs in one basket, which is a pretty silly use of the human resources available.
The vast majority of pollution is from agriculture. Are you gonna quit eating meat anytime soon?
I call BS
I did, and so should everyone else that claims to want to do something about the climate catastrophe.
Artificially grown meat is quickly becoming more and more viable, it's not like it will be impossible forever to have a steak.
I also stopped eating meat and also for climate first, but I wouldn't say a person is hypocritical not to either. The problem is not with individual consumers, our impacts are pretty much nonexistent on a problem of this scope. The problem is on our failures of regulators, and of grassroots organizations to enact change. If we want to have impact individually it's not by eating beans, it's by [redacted]. Or at least by organizing disruptive protest.
And you just won't be able to convince enough people to stop eating meat to stop animals from being reared and slaughtered. Humans have been eating meat since before we were homo sapiens. Expecting the masses to adopt a radically different diet is foolish.