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[-] theluddite@lemmy.ml 67 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

This might seem like a minor quibble, but that money doesn't really come from taxpayers, and understanding what seems like a very technical financial thing is really important if you want to understand geopolitics in general. Here's an except from the beginning of David Graeber's Debt: the First 5,000 years, easily one of the single most interesting and enlightening books I've ever read:

Starting in the 1980s, the United States, which insisted on strict terms for the re- payment of Third World debt, itself accrued debts that easily dwarfed those of the entire Third World combined — mainly fueled by military spending. The U.S. foreign debt, though, takes the form of treasury bonds held by institutional investors in countries (Germany, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, the Gulf States) that are in most cases, effectively, U.S. military protectorates, most covered in U.S. bases full of arms and equipment paid for with that very deficit spending. This has changed a little now that China has gotten in on the game (China is a special case, for reasons that will be explained later), but not very much — even China finds that the fact it holds so many U.S. treasury bonds makes it to some degree beholden to U.S. interests, rather than the other way around.

So what is the status of all this money continually being funneled into the U.S. treasury? Are these loans? Or is it tribute? In the past, military powers that maintained hundreds of military bases outside their own home territory were ordinarily referred to as "empires," and empires regularly demanded tribute from subject peoples. The U.S. government, of course, insists that it is not an empire — but one could easily make a case that the only reason it insists on treating these pay- ments as "loans" and not as "tribute" is precisely to deny the reality of what's going on.

[-] JayDee@lemmy.ml 42 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

So it's not coming from US tax payers, this is saying? It comes from Japanese taxpayers, German taxpayers, South Korean tax payers, etc. on top of US tax payers.

That really does not change the situation. It still is a massive amount of money out of US pockets, and the rest is out of US allies' citizen pockets. It also doesn't change the failing to pass audits. It also doesn't change their massive collection of known BS actions done in the past.

[-] driving_crooner 21 points 11 months ago

Also dosen't change the fact that they could pay for universal everything with that money.

[-] Rootiest@lemmy.world 10 points 11 months ago

I think the point is that the money wouldn't exist if it wasn't meant for military spending

[-] Telodzrum@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

That’s the one.

[-] theluddite@lemmy.ml 12 points 11 months ago

What it does change is that the availability of the money and the military machine are linked. It's not just that American taxpayers are footing the bill; it's that our military machine is funded by tribute, which we pretend is "debt" that we're totally going to pay back one day. It's one system.

To be clear, it's bad. I hate it. I just think it's important to understand how the thing we oppose works.

[-] Primarily0617@kbin.social 22 points 11 months ago

arguably the entire worth of the dollar as a currency comes from it being what taxpayers pay in, so yeah it kind of does come from taxpayers

also, money is fungible with other money, so "this stream of money doesn't come from there" doesn't make sense

[-] Telodzrum@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

arguably the entire worth of the dollar as a currency comes from it being what taxpayers pay in, so yeah it kind of does come from taxpayers

Not at all. The dollar’s valuation comes primarily from:

  1. Its backing by a stable economic and governmental system and the projected power of the military controlled by that government

  2. Its status at the global reserve currency

Tokyo, Lisbon, and Santiago don’t hold debt and equity in USD because Phil from Bozeman paid the IRS in that currency.

[-] Primarily0617@kbin.social 0 points 11 months ago

Its backing by a stable economic and governmental system

the only real backing the dollar has is that it's the only currency you can use to pay US taxes

1 is necessary for 2, so 2 isn't really a separate point

Tokyo, Lisbon, and Santiago don’t hold debt and equity in USD because Phil from Bozeman paid the IRS in that currency.

They hold debt and equity in USD because USD is stable because there is always a Phil from a Bozeman who needs to pay their taxes, so they money will always have value to somebody

[-] theluddite@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

The fungibility isn't what's at issue. The link between the money stream and the military is a system that can't be understood separately. Thinking of it as taxpayer funded doesn't make sense.

arguably the entire worth of the dollar as a currency comes from it being what taxpayers pay in, so yeah it kind of does come from taxpayers

I encourage you to read the book. It really changed my perspective on what value even is and what it means. I don't think you'll think this after reading it.

[-] Primarily0617@kbin.social 0 points 11 months ago

Thinking of it as taxpayer funded doesn’t make sense.

if you raise a billion dollars from taxpayers, and then raise a billion dollars from foreign debt, and you have a problem that you need to spend a billion dollars to fix, any dollar from either pile can go towards fixing that problem

this is like when red bull broke their spending cap in F1 and their response was to say that the overspend was from catering

I encourage you to read the book.

i can't read

[-] Assman@sh.itjust.works 9 points 11 months ago

Damn, you really changed my perspective there. Thanks for sharing.

[-] theluddite@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 months ago

Read the book! It's so good. It's a tome about debt but it's extremely readable and so, so interesting!

[-] Assman@sh.itjust.works 4 points 11 months ago

Already ordered it 😁

this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2023
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