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[+] CompassInspector@invariant-marxism.red 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I welcome that you openly admit that Stalinism is fundamentally a state-capitalist ideology.

Please don't put words in my mouth. What I actually said was that state-capitalism is fundamentally a misnomer because capitalism is fundamentally a system of capital accumulation by capitalists through exploitation of the working class. This fundamental capitalist mechanic is not present in what you refer to as state-capitalism.

Nor did I ever agree with you that this somehow fundamental to Soviet style communism. Organization of industry by the state was done because of the need for rapid industrialization in face of adversity from western capitalist powers. The original model of organizing industry ad hoc proven itself to be inefficient for this task.

However the state under state-capitalism is still bound by the unalterable laws of capital- it must still accumulate capital above all else (even above “making useful things”), make a profit (profit comes from the exploitation of wage labor), and compete in a global market, just like ‘actual capitalism’ (you seem to be calling ‘free market’ capitalism ‘actual capitalism’ to distinguish it from state-capitalism even though Marxism doesn’t really make a distinction). Just because the state owns the means of production doesn’t mean ‘the people’ own it (what does that even mean? That’s a total abstraction from class) or that they are not exploited.

That's just a bunch of falsehoods. First of all, the state does not accumulate capital. The labour is directed towards productive activity such as building infrastructure, housing, food production, and so on. That's the core difference you seem to be missing.

Nor did USSR compete on the global market. In fact, the way USSR interacted with other countries shows another clear difference from capitalism. USSR made huge investments into countries such as Cuba and Vietnam by building out their infrastructure, providing their people with education, and food. Once USSR collapsed, the quality of life in these countries saw a sharp decline. This is literally the opposite of the extractive capitalist relations practiced by the west.

Finally, since the working class holds the power in the state the workers do in fact own the means of production by virtue of having the dictatorship of the proletariat that runs the state.

Meanwhile, your Engels quote conveniently avoids the context where both Marx and Engels recognized that some form of a worker state was necessary as a transitional entity between capitalism and communism. This is literally what withering of the state refers to. You cannot take a society that was shaped by capitalist relations and magically turn it communist because people develop their habits and sensibilities based on their environment. Only when socialist relations have become the norm can there be talk of the stat withering. And it's certainly not something that's possible while capitalism is the dominant global ideology.

Trying to claim that Engels did not recognize the role of the state is the height of intellectual dishonesty given that this is literally the core disagreement between Engels and the anarchists.

[–] CompassInspector@invariant-marxism.red 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

state-capitalism is fundamentally a misnomer because capitalism is fundamentally a system of capital accumulation by capitalists through exploitation of the working class. This fundamental capitalist mechanic is not present in what you refer to as state-capitalism.

Capitalism is not only the exploitation of the working class by individual capitalists. As Marx and Engels explained, as as Engels argued, 'capitalist' is a social role, not an individual one. You're engaging in circular reasoning if you're trying to say "it wasn't capital accumulation because the state was not capitalist by definition".

Organization of industry by the state was done because of the need for rapid industrialization in face of adversity from western capitalist powers. The original model of organizing industry ad hoc proven itself to be inefficient for this task.

The drive towards industrialization in the USSR represented a state-led capital accumulation. Wages were quite low during this time. The fact that wages were set by state planners and not the market does not make them "not wages", and the fact that their labor value was appropriated by the state instead of privately does not make them "not wages" either.

That’s just a bunch of falsehoods. First of all, the state does not accumulate capital. The labour is directed towards productive activity such as building infrastructure, housing, food production, and so on. That’s the core difference you seem to be missing.

I'm aware that the USSR set prices and produced things according to production targets rather than market demand. This does not make it "not commodity production". Even if we concede that people are happy with the wages they are paid or are okay with their exploitation at the moment does not make it "not wage labor", "not exploitation" and thus "not capital accumulation - it's the fact that wage labor exists at all.

Nor did USSR compete on the global market. In fact, the way USSR interacted with other countries shows another clear difference from capitalism. USSR made huge investments into countries such as Cuba and Vietnam by building out their infrastructure, providing their people with education, and food. Once USSR collapsed, the quality of life in these countries saw a sharp decline. This is literally the opposite of the extractive capitalist relations practiced by the west.

While the USSR may have been different from Western capitalist countries in significant ways, it did not represent the abolition of capitalism and the establishment of communism/ socialism, or marked a "path towards" communism/ socialism. Other than that, their investment into other countries was not entirely free of self-interest either. By helping to develop the industries of these countries the USSR was creating trading partners that could supply raw materials and purchase Soviet goods, increase its influence and serve as a buffer between itself and the West.

Finally, since the working class holds the power in the state the workers do in fact own the means of production by virtue of having the dictatorship of the proletariat that runs the state.

More circular reasoning. You're saying that there's a dictatorship of the proletariat because there's a dictatorship of the proletariat. Moreover, you keep conflating terms- you realize that the DoTP and socialism/ communism are not the same right?

Meanwhile, your Engels quote conveniently avoids the context where both Marx and Engels recognized that some form of a worker state was necessary as a transitional entity between capitalism and communism. This is literally what withering of the state refers to. You cannot take a society that was shaped by capitalist relations and magically turn it communist because people develop their habits and sensibilities based on their environment. Only when socialist relations have become the norm can there be talk of the stat withering. And it’s certainly not something that’s possible while capitalism is the dominant global ideology.

The way this is framed is entirely wrong. The goal of socialism is not to build a worker’s nation-state. The proletarian state’s role, led by the vanguard party, is to directly suppress the bourgeoisie during the transition to communism globally. The dictatorship of the proletarian is not equivalent to communism/ socialism and the proletarian state does not take over the role of “managing” the state capital, as capital cannot be “tamed” like Stalinists think it can. This does not take place within the context of a nation-state. It happens internationally as the proletariat are at global war with the bourgeoisie. This is Stalin’s distortion of “socialism in one country”, where Stalin makes the argument that communism can peacefully co-exist alongside capitalism and that communism can exist standalone in the borders of a nation. It’s a complete departure from Marx and a gross misunderstanding of the role of the proletarian state.

Trying to claim that Engels did not recognize the role of the state is the height of intellectual dishonesty given that this is literally the core disagreement between Engels and the anarchists.

Now who is putting words in who’s mouth? Nowhere did say that Engels was an anarchist or argued against the need for a proletarian state. My argument is that Stalin’s theories are a gross departure from Marx's theory and Lenin’s application it. The point of the Engels quote is to show you that your argument is entirely semantic and superficial, you don’t have socialism by re-naming things ie. The People’s Bank (you can’t even make this up), The People’s Republic, waving red flags around, and calling yourself socialist but continuing the capitalist relations of production and exploitation of wage labor as usual. Stalinists today make the same mistake as Eugen Dühring as it is not the behavior of individual capitalists, or the entity that takes on the role of the capitalist, but the relations of production themselves.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Capitalism is not only the exploitation of the working class by individual capitalists. As Marx and Engels explained, as as Engels argued, ‘capitalist’ is a social role, not an individual one. You’re engaging in circular reasoning if you’re trying to say “it wasn’t capital accumulation because the state was not capitalist by definition”.

I'm not engaging in any circular thinking here. I'm simply stating that capital accumulation is the core aspect of capitalism, that's why it's called capitalism. Once again, the state does not accumulate capital. That's just something you made up and keep using as a straw man. The state directs the productive power towards producing material things people of the country use.

The drive towards industrialization in the USSR represented a state-led capital accumulation. Wages were quite low during this time. The fact that wages were set by state planners and not the market does not make them “not wages”, and the fact that their labor value was appropriated by the state instead of privately does not make them “not wages” either.

It did not, it produced infrastructure, housing, food, energy, and weapons that the people of USSR needed to live and defend themselves from the capitalist threat. Meanwhile, your argument regarding the wages is intellectually dishonest because it ignores all the things people got they didn't need to pay money for, and the fact that prices for things like food were fixed.

I’m aware that the USSR set prices and produced things according to production targets rather than market demand. This does not make it “not commodity production”. Even if we concede that people are happy with the wages they are paid or are okay with their exploitation at the moment does not make it “not wage labor”, “not exploitation” and thus "not capital accumulation - it’s the fact that wage labor exists at all.

People working to produce things that they all use collectively is not exploitation. Your whole argument here is fallacious. Nobody in USSR was exploiting the labour of the workers for personal benefit the way actual capitalism works. Labour was done in the collective interest.

You could make a coherent argument that organization of labour could have been better, or that there was lack of genuine workplace democracy. These could be sound and credible arguments drawing parallels between capitalist company structure and state owned enterprise in USSR. However, that's not the argument you're making.

More circular reasoning. You’re saying that there’s a dictatorship of the proletariat because there’s a dictatorship of the proletariat. Moreover, you keep conflating terms- you realize that the DoTP and socialism/ communism are not the same right?

I'm beginning to think that you don't understand what the term circular reasoning means. There was a dictatorship of the proletariat because the proletariat ran a communist revolution that was led by the communist party and took power. That's why there was a dictatorship of the proletariat.

The way this is framed is entirely wrong. The goal of socialism is not to build a worker’s nation-state. The proletarian state’s role, led by the vanguard party, is to directly suppress the bourgeoisie during the transition to communism globally. The dictatorship of the proletarian is not equivalent to communism/ socialism and the proletarian state does not take over the role of “managing” the state capital, as capital cannot be “tamed” like Stalinists think it can.

Once somebody demonstrates a better way to do thing we'll talk. The reality is that the approach that USSR followed actually created a better state of things than a capitalist society as imperfect as it was. This was a socialist state that was moving in the direction of communism. The goal of socialism is to create a transitional state that moves society from capitalist relations towards communist ones. This does not happen overnight.

This does not take place within the context of a nation-state. It happens internationally as the proletariat are at global war with the bourgeoisie.

This argument would make sense if there was a global socialist movement which does not actually exist. In absence of such a movement, creating a socialist state is obviously the next best option. If Europeans didn't shit the bed at the start of the 20th century and joined the communist movement, then what you're talking about may have been possible.

My argument is that Stalin’s theories are a gross departure from Marx’s theory and Lenin’s application it.

Unfortunately, your argument is not dialectical because it ignores the material realities that drove these departures. If USSR failed to rapidly industrialize under Stalin, the most likely outcome would've been that nazis Germany would've taken it apart and ushered in global fascism before US finally managed to do it.

You're presenting a position that ignores the material realities in favor of idealism. Lenin directly addresses this style of argument in “Left-Wing” Communism: an Infantile Disorder

To carry on a war for the overthrow of the international bourgeoisie, a war which is a hundred times more difficult, protracted and complex than the most stubborn of ordinary wars between states, and to renounce in advance any change of tack, or any utilisation of a conflict of interests (even if temporary) among one’s enemies, or any conciliation or compromise with possible allies (even if they are temporary, unstable, vacillating or conditional allies)—is that not ridiculous in the extreme? Is it not like making a difficult ascent of an unexplored and hitherto inaccessible mountain and refusing in advance ever to move in zigzags, ever to retrace one’s steps, or ever to abandon a course once selected, and to try others? And yet people so immature and inexperienced (if youth were the explanation, it would not be so bad; young people are preordained to talk such nonsense for a certain period) have met with support—whether direct or indirect, open or covert, whole or partial, it does not matter—from some members of the Communist Party of Holland.

What we see in China today is not fundamentally different from NEP which Lenin realized was necessary for largely the same reasons. It's very easy to argue and criticize things in the abstract, it's much harder to actually implement these things while under duress from global capitalism.

[–] CompassInspector@invariant-marxism.red 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I’m not engaging in any circular thinking here. I’m simply stating that capital accumulation is the core aspect of capitalism, that’s why it’s called capitalism. Once again, the state does not accumulate capital. That’s just something you made up and keep using as a straw man. The state directs the productive power towards producing material things people of the country use.

It did not, it produced infrastructure, housing, food, energy, and weapons that the people of USSR needed to live and defend themselves from the capitalist threat. Meanwhile, your argument regarding the wages is intellectually dishonest because it ignores all the things people got they didn’t need to pay money for, and the fact that prices for things like food were fixed.

People working to produce things that they all use collectively is not exploitation. Your whole argument here is fallacious. Nobody in USSR was exploiting the labour of the workers for personal benefit the way actual capitalism works. Labour was done in the collective interest.

Wage labor existed in the USSR. People paid for things in rubles. People purchased things on the market. The state bought and paid for things. The law of value was in operation (Stalin himself did not even contest this fact). Yes, they had some social programs, just like many social democracies do. It doesn't become "not wage labor" because you decided to call it "socialist wage labor" and slap a happy face sticker on it. When wage-labor exists, capital accumulation exists by definition because the value paid in wages in only part of the total value produced. Yes, value, as in the Law of Value. Price-fixing is a thing that happens in capitalist economies as well - the existence of price-fixing does not imply non-capitalism. The fact that social programs exist does not imply that either.

You could make a coherent argument that organization of labour could have been better, or that there was lack of genuine workplace democracy. These could be sound and credible arguments drawing parallels between capitalist company structure and state owned enterprise in USSR. However, that’s not the argument you’re making.

That would be like pointing to a rotting ship at the bottom of the sea covered in barnacles and complaining that one of the planks is loose. What is "genuine workplace democracy" anyway? That's not a Marxist term I've ever heard. I only ever hear Bernie/ Wolff enjoyers talk like that.

I’m beginning to think that you don’t understand what the term circular reasoning means. There was a dictatorship of the proletariat because the proletariat ran a communist revolution that was led by the communist party and took power. That’s why there was a dictatorship of the proletariat.

There was not a dictatorship of the proletariat because something that called itself the communist party took over. There was a dictatorship of the proletariat for a brief time under Lenin because the bourgeoisie and the capitalist mode of production were suppressed by the vanguard party of the proletariat. However this did not last past Lenin's death as the failures of the revolutions globally ultimately led to the failure of the revolution in Russia. A DotP sustaining itself in Russia alone would have been impossible. The path Russia took and where it is currently sitting at today proves that correct.

Once somebody demonstrates a better way to do thing we’ll talk. The reality is that the approach that USSR followed actually created a better state of things than a capitalist society as imperfect as it was. This was a socialist state that was moving in the direction of communism. The goal of socialism is to create a transitional state that moves society from capitalist relations towards communist ones. This does not happen overnight.

This argument would make sense if there was a global socialist movement which does not actually exist. In absence of such a movement, creating a socialist state is obviously the next best option. If Europeans didn’t shit the bed at the start of the 20th century and joined the communist movement, then what you’re talking about may have been possible.

What you're calling 'creating a socialist state' is not possible in that manner. Attempting to create a better society is certainly possible, but that society will still be capitalist in essence no matter if the people running the country want it or not. Capitalism is not something some functionary can sign away on some decree.

Unfortunately, your argument is not dialectical because it ignores the material realities that drove these departures. If USSR failed to rapidly industrialize under Stalin, the most likely outcome would’ve been that nazis Germany would’ve taken it apart and ushered in global fascism before US finally managed to do it.

I wasn't suggesting they had another choice. What I do criticize them for is for hurting future revolutions by not just admitting that socialism was not possible at that time. They didn't have to distort Marx, Engels, and Lenin with their abomination of 'Marxism-Leninism'. I'm not saying they shouldn't have defended themselves.

You’re presenting a position that ignores the material realities in favor of idealism. Lenin directly addresses this style of argument in “Left-Wing” Communism: an Infantile Disorder

Now you are just throwing random quotes at me. Lenin is correct here but it he is talking about his disagreement about tactics with some other communists as he viewed as inflexible in their strategy. Nothing he says here applies to my argument or supports what you're saying. Lenin never argued for the continuation of commodity production and would have never suggested it as a strategy for any reason, any more than he would argue for throwing up their hands and immediately surrendering to the bourgeoisie. He did acknowledge that socialist relations would co-exist alongside commodity production for a time, but he acknowledged that the parts of society where commodity production prevails are still capitalist.

What we see in China today is not fundamentally different from NEP which Lenin realized was necessary for largely the same reasons. It’s very easy to argue and criticize things in the abstract, it’s much harder to actually implement these things while under duress from global capitalism.

Since we're quoting Lenin:

"The development of the proletarian revolution in other countries is going to be somewhat more difficult, but only for the time being, only in the present period of bourgeois-democratic revolution, only in the present period of the collapse of the Second International. We know perfectly well, however, that 'final' victory can be achieved only on a world scale, and only by the joint efforts of the workers of all countries."

"The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky" (1918). Lenin knew that the success in revolution in Russia depended on the successes of the revolutions in Europe. When he talks about final victory he's not talking about some far-off future of gay space communism in 500 years. He was talking about the present period. Lenin signed the NEP and died before it was really apparent that there wasn't any possibility left for a world revolution. Signing the NEP was a strategic action they took and they could not really have done anything else. "Socialism in one country" is not a "theory" he would ever have advanced though.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 years ago

Wage labor existed in the USSR.

You're either missing or intentionally ignoring my point which is the purpose of labour. The purpose of labour under capitalism is to create wealth for the capital owning class. The purpose of labour in a socialist system such as USSR is to create value for society. What you're talking about is the organization of labour, which I completely agree can be done better than what USSR did. However, that's an entirely separate point of discussion.

That would be like pointing to a rotting ship at the bottom of the sea covered in barnacles and complaining that one of the planks is loose. What is “genuine workplace democracy” anyway? That’s not a Marxist term I’ve ever heard. I only ever hear Bernie/ Wolff enjoyers talk like that.

It's kind of amusing that you can't even acknowledge that Marxist theory continues to evolve over time and new terminology is added. Workplace democracy typically refers to cooperative ownership of the enterprise where the workers have a democratic say over administrative functions of the business, get to elect leaders in the workplace, and have power of recall. USSR practised aspects of this, but still suffered from worker alienation.

There was not a dictatorship of the proletariat because something that called itself the communist party took over. There was a dictatorship of the proletariat for a brief time under Lenin because the bourgeoisie and the capitalist mode of production were suppressed by the vanguard party of the proletariat. However this did not last past Lenin’s death as the failures of the revolutions globally ultimately led to the failure of the revolution in Russia. A DotP sustaining itself in Russia alone would have been impossible. The path Russia took and where it is currently sitting at today proves that correct.

That's a rather superficial and frankly ahistorical interpretation of events. USSR certainly was not destined to collapse, and many alternative paths were clearly possible. Claiming that USSR was not a dictatorship of the proletariat is also demonstrably absurd.

What you’re calling ‘creating a socialist state’ is not possible in that manner. Attempting to create a better society is certainly possible, but that society will still be capitalist in essence no matter if the people running the country want it or not. Capitalism is not something some functionary can sign away on some decree.

That's a completely baseless assertion I'm afraid. A state such as USSR can absolutely transition past capitalist relations, and it was very much happening in USSR until the counterrevolution was allowed to happen under Gorbachev.

I wasn’t suggesting they had another choice. What I do criticize them for is for hurting future revolutions by not just admitting that socialism was not possible at that time. They didn’t have to distort Marx, Engels, and Lenin with their abomination of ‘Marxism-Leninism’. I’m not saying they shouldn’t have defended themselves.

Again, I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that USSR wasn't socialist, or that there was no path towards communism in USSR. While other interpretations of Marx, Engels, and Lenin are certainly valid, the interpretation USSR had was sound given the conditions USSR existed under.

Lenin never argued for the continuation of commodity production and would have never suggested it as a strategy for any reason, any more than he would argue for throwing up their hands and immediately surrendering to the bourgeoisie. He did acknowledge that socialist relations would co-exist alongside commodity production for a time, but he acknowledged that the parts of society where commodity production prevails are still capitalist.

I mean Lenin literally created the NEP, and he was clearly pragmatic enough to realize what compromises needed to be made. So far, the only tangible critique of USSR I can discern in your argument is that your disagree with the use of state owned enterprise as the mode of organizing labour. Perhaps you can articulate your critique more clearly.

“The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky” (1918). Lenin knew that the success in revolution in Russia depended on the successes of the revolutions in Europe.

This is the point I made earlier, since the conditions for a world revolution did not exist, the next best thing that could be done was to build a socialist state in form of USSR. This is what Parenti referred to as Siege Socialism. The fact of the matter is that Lenin and Marx turned out to be overly optimistic. It turns out that capitalism is much more resilient than people expected, and overthrowing it globally is a very difficult task. Creating bulwarks against capitalism is an important step towards that.