Hey all,
So I'm looking to take an active step here to understand better some things that my straight/white/cis/middle-aged male brain has had a tough time wrapping itself around, particularly in the gender identity front.
I'm working from the understanding of physical sex as the bio-bits and the expressed identity as being separate things, so that part is easy enough.
What's confusing to me though is like this. If we take gender as being an expression of your persona, a set of traits that define one as male, female, or some combination of both then what function does a title/pronoun serve? To assume that some things are masculine or feminine traits seems to put unneeded rigidity to things.
We've had men or women who enjoy things traditionally associated with the other gender for as long as there have been people I expect. If that's the case then what purpose does the need for a gender title serve?
I'll admit personally questioning some things like fairness in cis/trans integrated sports, but that's outside what I'm asking here. Some things like bathroom laws are just society needing to get over itself in thinking our personal parts are all that special.
Certainly not trying to stir up any fights, just trying to get some input from people that have a different life experience than myself. Is it really as simple as a preferred title?
Edit: Just wanted to take a second to thank all the people here who took the time to write some truly extensive thoughts and explanations, even getting into some full on citation-laden studies into neurology that'll give me plenty to digest. You all have shown a great deal of patience with me updating some thinking from the bio/social teachings of 20+ years back. π
Elder millennial trying his best to improve. I had issue with a friend, who identified as queer, who recently married a trans man and wanted me to use the pronoun "thier" for this person. I mean, I'm supportive, but I don't want to butcher the English language. I mean it's even uncomfortable for me to type that out as I feel like walking on eggshells to accommodate, and someone seems to be pissed off.
Singular they/them/their is a concept brought to English in the 14th century. It's not butchering the English language to use they/them/theirs to refer to one person. You probably do it automatically without realizing it when referring to people wholly unknown to you when nothing can cue you in about their gender, like when referring to somebody that somebody else is talking to on the phone: "Who was that? What did they want?"
No, I've always 100% of my entire life used they/them unless someone referred to themselves is he/she or otherwise. Always thought it was weird when people used masculine pronouns when writing and there's zero indication of traditional female/male.
My friend would want me to say something like, "Do you and Their want to go out later?" when referring to her trans husband, I'm the asshole if I say, "Do you and Alex want to go out later?"
That is indeed a new one. It'd take me a while to get that right too. It's odd that your friend and her husband are wound up by you using her husband's name
Have you asked her husband how they want to be referred to? It may be a miscommunication. Other ways to approach this would be to use other words like "y'all" or "you two" or "you and your husband". English is a pretty flexible language so you can probably find another way to avoid this, but it sounds like they are using "their" as a name and want you to never give this person pronouns and only use the name "their" as a point of reference.
Yet you use the singular you? Singular they has been a normal part of English longer than singular you, which is why you used "are" with you even when it is used as a singular and "are" is plural. Edit: noticed later that their want you to use their/their/their, not they/them/their. Edited some of it of the comment.
Interesting. Weird using possesive form for everything. Still hardly seems like something to get upset about.
you intentionally refer to people with names they don't want. Its not like they asked you to call them something like "cunt" or something and you have some moral opposition to ever saying that word. Showing clear disrespect for no reason is kinda asshole behavior. Especially if they're the spouse of someone you claim to be your friend.
Read above the friend wasn't asking to use they/them/their which would be completely reasonable and something I do by default 100% of the time. The only pronoun my friends husband wanted to be referred to is "their." I don't request people use "Lord" as my preferred pronoun because that's fucking stupid and I'm not a titled Lord. I'm not using a determiner improperly.
That'd be a "neopronoun", typically used by folks who feel like none of the standard pronouns fit them.
They're rather uncommon for the reasons you've described, even I have trouble remembering to always use xie/xir or fae/faer for my queer friends that identify as such.
Fortunately, the folks that do use neopronouns are aware of this and most are quite patient about it. So long as you show your friend and their husband that you're making an effort to recognize thier unusual gender, such as by quickly correcting yourself and moving on if you catch yourself using the wrong pronoun, then they won't think any less of you for it. π
I mean, I'm comfortable with using what you describe as neopronouns for people asking to use fae, Xi, and others, but I have a problem butchering established grammar. Her husband doesn't own or possess me. I'll use "husband" as that's an identifier my friend used or the name "Alex" they chose but to make it a point, I have to use "their" is a bit much.
Edit: I'm leaving my comment below for posterity and in case others are confused, but it actually isn't what the above is about. See jarfil's reply to this for context.
The use of "they/them/their" in the singular is a long established part of the English language. It's not new, and you're not butchering anything by using it. People who claim otherwise may either be poorly informed or intentionally being malicious. Hope this helps!
@apotheotic@beehaw.org @knightly@pawb.social
The problem seems to be asking to use the posessive determiner "their", as a personal pronoun. That's a weird one, and contrary to the established meaning of "their" that you mention.
bingo
If that's the case, I apologise. So, the person is asking you to say like...
"Alex had an appointment today. Their said it went well"?
As opposed to "Alex had their appointment today"?
Correct. This friend has always been trificult.
The singular "they" is actually a couple hundred years older than using "you" instead of "thou" as a second person pronoun.
I'm sorry to say that your English teachers were pulling a fast one on you when they told you "they/them/their" couldn't be singular.
I believe that isnβt the issue here, rather that they seem to be using the possessive βtheirβ in all cases of the use of that pronoun.
Oh! Well that is interesting!
It'd take me a while to get the hang of that. πΊ
Admitting a lack of knowledge is a first step. Queer has been another aspect confusing to me. Aside from the old use as a slur (kids around my area back in the 80s used to play something of a reverse tag game they called 'smear the queer' where they tried to tackle the one who was it) it always seemed like a catch-all for not fitting into the base mold.