this post was submitted on 19 Apr 2024
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What?
I've watched people shoplift food several times, and they weren't poor people just looking to eat. I watched someone run out of a M&S store and into an awaiting car with a huge bag full of meat around Christmas time, probably several hundred pounds worth.
If someone was stealing a loaf of bread or something for themselves, I didn't see a thing, but let's not pretend that people aren't stealing to make some money. Lots of people steal stuff to resell, or because they're just dicks...
When you rob one grocery store of a 10 lb brisket, its called shoplifting.
But when you rob every grocery store of 10% of their net revenue, its called paying your shareholders a dividend.
You can give a shit about two things at once. Imagine that lol.
Both the mountain and the mole hill are important features of the landscape
For sure. And the mountain is a big one. But when you're talking about moles digging up your garden, someone pointing to the mountain and telling how that's much bigger than the molehills doesn't seem that relevant.
Don't really care about some corporations losing out on their margins after nickel and diming everyone as high as they possibly can. Especially if the end result is someone or multiple people eating.
Here they've had shittier protections against shoplifting, no bags to shops and whatnot because junkies kept stealing expensive meats and cheese to sell. It sucks. Here they're even given money to live on, housing, free food and whatnot. Hasn't stopped it.
What a disgusting dehumanizing term. Drug addiction is a much greater issue that needs more than reactionary remarks and actions to solve. A good number are literally that desperate for money because they'll literally die from withdrawals without whatever it is they're addicted to. And so long as they're being non-violent then I empathize with their struggle.
Again, I don't at all care about some large corporate store getting stolen from. Actions like banning bags and whatnot mean little in the face of human suffering.
Narkomaani -> narkkari, narkkari -> junkie. For me it's a shorthand rather than an attempt to make them feel bad about it.
We have fairly extensive benefits programs (money, housing, programs for addiction, mental health, many sorts) but the thing about drug addiction is that it drains all the money you have. That's why so often addicts are also stealing stuff to get more money for drugs. Sucks for them but also sucks for others who get their shit stolen. Especially bikes get stolen a lot by junkies. And sucks that because of the stealing some stores are having harder time justifying the expenses, which can lead to shops closing. I don't think it's ever been the sole reason here but it has been one of the reasons.
It sucks as a shopper that things are worsening because of stealing. And it's a co-op I was thinking of so it's not really that sort of faceless corporation. I just voted in the co-op elections, actually.
It would be easier to empathize if they were stealing to eat instead of getting more money for drugs. Or if we had the US style system where benefits and social programs barely exist. But that's not the case.
If people are stealing for drugs then it means that the system in place isn't meeting their current needs. The problem for a lot of addicts is that they either steal and cheat for drugs or die. Withdrawals literally have the capability to kill addicts. I don't believe in any circumstance we should be holding money ahead of human lives.
It's a shame when people are stolen from, but it's a tragedy when people die. And a system that doesn't allow an avenue for actual recovery is a failed system.
I don't know what I'd honestly add on top of what we now have in Finland. Housing, money, food programs, clean needles, addiction programs, programs to manage your life, all sort of stuff. What would you change or add?
We have free replacement drugs available to addicts. So you could get that for your withdrawals without having to steal. But many steal instead. Not sure how I'd change the system to get them to pick the replacement drugs instead of stealing.
What about the system in Finland doesn't allow for actual recovery?
Drugs in general are still illegal to possess and use under Finnish law. You need to decriminalize drug use before you can actually tackle it since it's a health/psychology issue when it comes to the individual.
It's hard to seek out proper help when you're worried that you'll be arrested/fined just for being an addict.
I don't think decriminalization has stopped the problem either, with stealing happening in places where it has been decriminalized. Like mentioned, it's not a life or death situation here. The reason for stealing is not having enough money for drugs and unless those are given for free, I really don't see a situation where there wouldn't be an issue with addicts stealing to make money for drugs. We can only try to alleviate the issue, but at the point where there's ample other opportunities for them, it's much easier not to tolerate stealing.
Maybe if this was the US I'd have more sympathy. From what I've heard it's a real dog eat dog world there. But here it's not really the same.
Not sure how high of a bar there is in Finland for seeking help. It's not really something you as an addict you have to seek out either, since it's constantly promoted by social services and people working directly with the addicts and in the addict communities. So people know there is help and it's pretty low bar and approachable. And the police really aren't after the addicts like in many other places. Police treat them either as social cases or as a nuisance than criminals and don't really go after them. Social stigma might be a higher barrier or cultural stuff about asking or accepting help.
And of course you can't really force people to get help. I know it might be shocking to some but a lot of social workers and even ex addicts consider prison a good thing for addicts because that's the place where finally they've gone into recovery programs and such. But you can't of course just jail all addicts and push them into the programs either.
Except it literally is life or death in the case of withdrawal. Those who are addicted things like like heroin, or even have a severe enough addiction to alcohol can die once they're in a certain part of the withdrawal process.
And just because prison was the rock bottom that some addicts needed to reform doesn't mean it's the best option. Honestly prison is one of the worst possible options because it leads to a positive feedback loop of criminality. Addicts are automatically labeled as criminals on arrest and then have to fight against that stigma for the rest of their life. So of course they'd do things like turn back to crime, because their options are automatically limited on arrest.
I won't sit here and act like I have all of the solutions. I don't have all of the solutions and I'm just some guy. But so long as addiction is seen as a criminal offense we will fail addicts every single time. We need the large scale social programs Finland has currently along with a strong re-evaluation of how to handle drug related crimes.
What do you think the replacement drugs do exactly?
Nobody was saying it's the best option. It's just what some felt they needed to finally break the cycle. Are you how familiar with Finnish prisons?
I don't think decriminalization has really stopped addicts from committing crime. It's a bit like homelessness here, you might offer all kinds of services and have housing available to everyone, but you can't make everyone accept that help. Might help with the number of addicts, but won't stop some from turning to crime to make money for drugs. Free drugs would probably do away with a lot of crime but then you'd probably have a shitload of ODs.
The replacement drugs only work with someone inside the system. There are a lot of people outside of or at odds with the system because of how it levies criminality against addicts. And again: criminality that is automatically assumed acts as a positive feedback loop leading to addicts committing legitimate crime.
I'm not familiar with Finnish prisons. I've been told that they're better than US prisons and I definitely believe that much. But still, someone with an issue of addiction shouldn't be going to prison at all in the first place. That was the main point I was trying to make there.
And I'm not advocating for anything like free drugs. What I'm advocating for is a more psychological approach to handing addiction. Addiction itself is a psychological disease, and it needs to be treated like that. Not like it's some sort of moral failure: like the system insists upon.
I do not think we will find consensus on this, so this is where I'll take my leave.
I don't think you're very familiar with how the situations about addicts is in Finland. Addicts aren't really outside of the "system" here in a way that'd prevent them from having access to replacement drugs. It's easy to get them to avoid issues such as we are talking here.
I don't think the reason some steal is about access. Nor do I think it's about fear of being branded a criminal since you're putting yourself into much bigger risk and making yourself into an actual criminal by stealing to make money instead of just going to get replacement stuff.
I agree with it in the sense that they shouldn't be going there just for addiction or drug use, which they don't. You won't go to jail for that and even fines for using are rare. It's the criminality around it (trying to get money for drugs, dealing drugs) that get people convicted.
Finnish prisons are interesting in that often people are put into so called "open prisons" that are very lax and you get to spend a lot of time outside the prison and whatnot. The intention is rehabilitation and it's a good place to get someone hesitant about programs to get into one. But of course the point isn't to jail them to force their them into programs. It's always better for people to do that outside of prison, before things escalate to them being jailed.
I think that's how it usually is treated here. As a disease and as a social issue rather than issue of criminality and such.
I don't think that's always necessary, discussion even with disagreements can be useful. But I respect your decision.
This isn't Robin Hood. These are two guys that clearly wanted to steal food at a peak time to sell it elsewhere. The same number of people are eating, possibly less so because these guys are probably flogging their stolen shit in a pub somewhere and will likely dump what they can't sell.
This place is so weird sometimes. I don't know if it's a Lemmy or American thing, but this kind of stuff is pretty common in the UK...
Grocery stores dump hundred of pound of still edible food into the garbage each and every day. And no one is eating less because of thefts from the grocery store. The main reason people are starving right now is because their grocery bill spiked and extra $100-200 for absolutely no reason other than pure greed that they were able to blame on "inflation".
Your problem isn't with the addicts, its with the system that is ever antagonistic towards its people. Addicts can be hard people to deal with, but they're still people. Now obviously if they're acting violently there's no excuse for action like that. But if they're just taking food why should I care?
Perhaps it's safe to say they're poor. Poor people often don't have enough money. Still sounds like a job of desperation.
Desperation to avoid getting a real, legal job, maybe.
It is not. I've seen these scumbags' subreddit, I've seen their Tumblr tags. They're not poor, they're just scumbag thieves.
An actual poor person stealing necessities because they have no other choice does NOT have this ridiculous entitled mindset.
"avoid"
It's amazing, isn't it, that there are people out there who think that poor people enjoy it for the benefits...
Please, everyone knows the vast majority of you thieves and those cheering them on aren't even poor, you're just immoral scumbags who feel entitled to the things you steal. I've seen the subreddit, I've seen the Tumblr tags. You're not fooling me, trying to mix yourselves in with those stealing because they have no other way to survive.
Very immoral, unlike those huge moral corporations who just want what's best for everyone...
Yes, that is the lie that they've been telling you. The question is why you believe them.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/target-blamed-theft-violence-crime-closures-rcna130443
Stop trying to rationalize stealing things that don't belong to you, it's repugnant.
Sure, just as soon as you stop supporting corporate PR lies.
Please, cut the crap. I've seen the subreddit and the Tumblr tags, I know you thieves aren't broke, and aren't stealing necessities. And you guys can't even help but expose yourselves anyway, unable to resist encouraging the theft of even high-end luxury items.
The irony is that you try to rationalize it as 'I'm only hurting the Big Bad Soulless Corporation', but the fact is that you're not hurting it, you're hurting the people who work there to survive, people who probably are much closer to being broke than you are. If shrinkage gets too high, a location isn't just going to hang around not profiting, it'll get closed.
And then, of course, people like you will complain about the food desert that now exists in that area, completely unironically, because you're just that far gone.
You believe in "welfare queens," don't you?
And yet Google tells me that M&S has a revenue of £11.93 billion.
So why are you caring about them losing a few hundred of that?
Because others can't buy meat because some bellends wanted to steal it to sell during Christmas?
I don't give a fuck about M&S losing profit. I do give a fuck about obvious crime that puts people out...
Are you unaware of the amount of meat that gets thrown out by grocery stores? In the US, it’s billions of pounds a year.
I highly doubt they ran out of the store with an amount that did more than make someone’s job easier that night, or force someone to pivot their dinner to a different cut of meat.
Like, I get it. I do. It’s a lot of money, and it’s against the law. But the idea that someone is going to go hungry because of the action is ridiculous.
Who cares lmao
If you're nicking stuff M&S it can't just be any theft
Yeah, to be fair I feel like I've been robbed any time I get lunch there...
You don't know that the person owned the car. Breed is not nutrients rich. People can't live on breed.
What the fuck are you talking about? They literally ran into a getaway car with their friend to leave the scene of the crime as fast as they could. You don't steal hundreds of pounds of meat at Christmas because "you need nutrients"...
I knew a very good looking girl, she was a student while I did my B.Sc. her parents paid for her studies but nothing more. She managed to work enough to rent a very basic place.
However, she had no problem asking people for a ride, or to take their car for a ride. She would than shoplift a lot of food, including high quality ingredients. If something went wrong she smiled and cried her self out of the troubles.
And the stolen food? she cooked a lot and gave away most of it.
People are weird, and you don't know what's going in other people's lives. Is it possible they are trying to make profit on the back of others? Yes, can it be something else? Yes.
Somehow I managed to work enough hours in college to afford both food and rent. Imagine that.
There is more than one country on Earth, different regions within a county may offer different number of available jobs and some people have different capabilities due to health issues. Imagine that.
There will always be people that'll miss the point, as some of the replies show...
Yeah we need to stop the resale markets