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No-win scenario
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 11 Jun 2024
1285 points (98.8% liked)
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"You said you didn't know. But i know. Leave gender out of this."
Why would this not work?
Sounds like you've only dated reasonable people.
I hoped for some examples, to learn from.
Okay, here's what I can share.
The problem is that some people are hot garbage at explaining what they're feeling while seeking emotional validation. In situations like this, they're in a place of distress where thinking through stuff is just hard. The dialogue that GP lays out has subtext that can only be deduced by reading the parts where she is angry. In this case, her angered response at closing a knowledge gap strongly suggests that she really just wanted to be heard and supported.
I think she might be bothered by the fact that the mechanic asked her to do something where she's out of her depth. This sets up the following thoughts in her mind:
... which is a recipe for embarrassment and vulnerability. And she's gonna carry that feeling home. GP should follow up with a dialogue that demonstrates care and support, so she can process all this. If she really wants material help, like proper auto care, she'll ask once she feels safe to do so.
That said, it's impossible to know for sure without confirming anything. To do that, we must be proactive with such people and ask smart questions up front to figure out where they want the conversation to go. But you're going to have a whole conversation about this so make sure you have the next 30-60 minutes available. Also, pack your patience, because this has 0% to do with you, your feelings, and your answers to "problems". Literally anyone is able to do this, but she trusts you to be there for her.
Say things like this:
Do not:
This may seem like a real chore to some people; it did to me at first. The "right" answer may seem like "teach a man to fish" and all that. It's so simple, right? But here's the rub: we should all be doing this, and we should all be so supported. Having your bad day met with "well, here's what you should have done instead" is just a miserable way to live.
And yeah, absolutely awful people abuse this framework, can't introspect, and/or never learn. It's possible you're in this situation right now, so be smart about it. Be mindful of patterns and ask to be heard in kind (reciprocate) when you think or feel you're being taken advantage of (e.g. "you keep coming to me for support for the same problem over and over and I feel used"). When your feelings are being dismissed, stepped on, or outright abused, that's the moment to re-think things. Seek help elsewhere.
This is a very well-considered comment but I don't think this is very good advice.
It is not reasonable to have a 30-60-minute one-sided conversation of feelings validation caused by someone asking you to do a routine task. Asking for help when you don't know something specific is a completely normal response. Acting very aggressively to your partner when they ask if you want them to explain (Not explaining immediately) is not a reasonable or proportionate response. I can't think of any situation where that is a justifiable response and I don't think everyone should be "supported" in that way.
The disproportionate response is a giveaway though that something else is wrong, either they were looking for an excuse to be angry or they were feeling especially insecure about the specific topic that they were corrected on. The relationship should be about acting as a team working to support each other, coming back and using your partner as an anger dump is a terrible behavior that will sow seeds of resentment and undermine any positive communication. That's why I would try to work out what the real issue is next, but be clear that the initial behavior was unacceptable.
I would also argue that the prevailing sentiment that when people come into a conversation after a bad time looking for validation of feelings giving solutions is wrong, is itself a bad take. For sure those conversations should start with validating the feelings and understanding what happened but ideally, they should finish with some discussion of solutions (If there can be one, some problems are open-ended, there may need even be a solution). I think this for two reasons, firstly it stops the topic from hanging over people by closing the topic and can give the other person a sense of having helped which alleviates the one-sided nature of the discussion. Secondly just validating feelings doesn't scale to the harder conversations, if you can't end a discussion about feeling insecure about car maintenance by learning how to do the maintenance, how the hell are you going to have a good conversation about whether your parent gets put into care that ends in a decision?
There is also an undercurrent of normalizing selfishness with some of the advice given out, not you specifically but this kind of advice is in the zeitgeist. Why is the person who is upset more valued in the discussion than the person who isn't? More specifically there is a narrative that someone that likes to give solutions to problems first is wrong and should be corrected. Which I think is a very unhealthy way of framing the issue, people need to have empathy for how others communicate and meet them halfway. "This person didn't comfort me how I would comfort them, I will now be angry at them" is not OK. It ignores the context of the fact that they did try and comfort you in their way which is worth something and also ignores the fact that if you try and comfort someone who likes solutions by engaging with feeling you will do just as bad a job. The person more engaged with emotions is not more correct by default there is no "correct" anyway. I think any long-term relationship that asks one or both of the people to fill a role that is defined by the other person's expectations is destined to fail. There is inherent friction in acting a part you don't understand that eventually leads to resentment.
I find this a lot, to be an assumption, and I think the assumption makes sense. It's less that they are or aren't valued more, but more that the person who isn't upset is taken to be the reasonable one which will be more receptive to longwinded posts about what they should or shouldn't do.
This is a great response that captured my feelings well. I'm not sure why the replier assumed the ex was initially angry, to me it just sounds like they were telling a story about something that happened to them that day. If I was describing this to a partner and they assumed it was traumatic for me, I would be perhaps a bit flattered by the concern, but mostly just confused. Because that is a significant overreaction to a common experience.
A professional mechanic is going to know much more about taking care of cars than us, that's what we pay them for. And it's normal (and thoughtful) for them to give people advice that we may need to look into more later on. And if the partner kept thinking I would internalize feelings of inadequacy from these mundane experiences even after I corrected them, it would be both annoying and insulting. If anything, that would be patronizing.
Also, if I told a story where I described not knowing something that would be useful in the future, and my partner did know about it, I would want them to offer to teach me about it. Accusing your partner of being manipulative just because they try to help you with a problem is both cynical and immature. I pity people who are so jaded as to see genuine offers of help as instead malicious, but I would encourage them to at least try to assume others are engaging in good faith until being given a reason to suspect otherwise.
No one should be another's free therapy.
People-things are always so complicated.
Indeed. Everyone has a brain, but nobody fully understands how one works. Right now, science is in a dead heat to see who finishes first: unraveling the mysteries of the cosmos and existence itself, and human cognition.
Follow-up: The mechanic should have a brochure or boilerplate guide for basic auto care chores like measuring your tire/tyre wear. This sets up the power move of "we give this to ALL our customers", thereby avoiding any call-outs and giving GP's ex-girlfriend the cover she needed. Instead the mechanic was probably trying to be helpful, but wound up ruining GP's day in the process by being unintentionally insensitive.
Be a bro: don't set other people's partners off.
I think there was little chance it was actually about not knowing how to check tyre wear.
Also, every tyre place I've ever been to has had how-to check tyre wear printed in huge posters on every surface available, it makes it easier for them to sell more tyres. This is on top of it being a requirement to get a driving license in my country.
This is really good advice. And like you said, it's a lot of work, but it makes us grow a bit, too.
That seems like awful grammar, lol. Hopefully it gets the point across.
"Being able to leave gender out of it just shows your privilege" etc etc. At least that's the reaction I've seen online.
It might well have, but at the time I didn't have the energy.