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SWEET JESUS, POOH!
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this post was submitted on 10 Jul 2024
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Lefty Memes
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But, I love bashing the fash.
Sorry, that means you're just as bad as the fash. You should be engaging them on the marketplace of ideas, just like people did in WW II when they stopped the fascists with kindness and debate
Does anyone actually advocate for this?
The fascists
All of mainstream media? Where have you been?
Once, someone threw a milk shake. The NYT was wringing hands for weeks.
I mean of course I was being hyperbolic but I've had several people tell me something equivalent to pretty much like this. "Using violence against fascists is stooping to their level" is another classic.
edit: aaaaaand here we go, there is now at least one person in these comments saying exactly this
There's been a push for decades that everyone should be respectful and peaceful and not bother anyone when they protest in any way. The entire country forgetting how we've accomplished almost every major societal change.
Liberals
You mean... apart from about nine out of every ten liberals?
Fascism was never stopped. Can never be stopped. Fascism is not a political ideology, it is an expression of human psychology.
If someone in your life is becoming a fascist, like is happening in many of our lives, do you get a gun and kill them? Does that solve fascism in your life? Perhaps you merely punch them until they stop being a fascist. Is this really actionable advice?
Fascism is growing because people are afraid of an increasingly uncertain future that they have no power over. Threatening them with violence will only make them more afraid and draw even more on what fascism offers them. The people in our lives need love, not violence.
"Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement […]" (wiki, although I'm sure you'll soon tell us that Wikipedia is not a valid source because you don't understand the difference between using Wikipedia as a source on Lemmy vs. in a scientific article)
The people in my life aren't Nazis
Well said.
I appreciate the thought but it really wasn't 😅
That last part is the important bit. If you know a fascist, they don't need to be part of your life.
No no, apparently that's "purity testing" and you're a bad person for not wanting to associate with fascists
I know the right-wing infosphere has brainwashed multiple members of my family. I don't have a way to check the percentage of people I've known in my life that are now brainwashed. I know that my life would have been lesser had I not met every single one of them. I don't see the people in my life as a purity test, they're still the same people. What happened to them is a reminder that we must first and foremost defeat fascism, the political ideology.
What the – and I simply can't emphasize this enough – fuck does it have to do with PuRiTy TeStInG if I don't want to associate or spend time with people whose political ideologies would fucking literally have me stripped of human rights if not outright murdered because of my gender and/or gender identity? What sort of an obligation do I have to keep those people in my life if they have publicly stated opinions that make it clear that I may not actually be physically safe in their presence?
And no, I don't have a way to "check the percentage of people I've known in my life that are now brainwashed" either you utter cabbage, I just don't knowingly associate with extremists conservatives let alone literal Nazis. If somebody I know turns out to have fallen off the deep end, I just don't keep associating with them. See, no magical PuRiTy TeStEr required?
So yes, great, good on you for being so accepting of people, I unironically commend you for that, but even though I have no idea who you are or what your background is, this comment – like a lot of the hugbox let's defeat the nazis with love bullshit I've seen earlier – definitely feels like it's coming from someone who's got no experience with being on the receiving end of bigotry or misogyny. Easy to be a bit more understanding and accepting of Nazis when you wouldn't be one of the first people they'd shove in a camp.
Edit: and I'm saying this as an avowed lover of hugboxes of various kinds. "Cute but will fight"
Not everyone has the luxury of knowing no one who has been brainwashed by the right-wing infosphere. A person not having anyone who has partially or fully adopted fascist ideology in their life is not something to brag about. Nor should that be the goal.
People have families. People have childhood friends they've known their whole lives. People have classmates with the same or similar schedule as them. People have adult friends in their social circles. People have co-workers at their jobs. People cannot control the political ideology of the people around them. If someone is informed enough to know exactly who in their life is currently a fascist and can disassociate exactly from those people then good for them. The majority of people will not be able to do that. Nor will doing that solve the problem.
When the response to this
is this
That's a purity test. Your argument is to sort ourselves by political ideology.
I am a Jewish, atheist, social democrat, lesbian, trans woman. I'm white and pre-transition, so I get to benefit from white male privilege for now. But if the fascists could put me in a death camp they would.
If a person is in danger from someone in their life and can dissociate from that person, then by all means dissociate from them.
The way to defeat fascism is to defeat the ideas that make up the political ideology. Isolating ourselves does nothing to forward this goal.
You're still missing the point here. I never said I keep tabs on everyone at all times just so I can pull the eject handle if they turn Nazi, just that if it does turn out somehow that someone is a Nazi, that is when I pull the eject handle.
In any case, my argument absolutely is that I'm going to sort my friends by political ideology – and no, I don't give people forms to fill out or install cameras in their homes. Doesn't mean everyone has to think exactly like me, but "no Nazis" doesn't feel like it should be a high bar. Sure, maybe this does nothing to help solve the situation but I have no interest in having to be buddies with them, let alone loving them – better people are welcome to it, but I'm done, I'd jump off a cliff if I had to listen to yet another "rational" fascist wannabe explain why my whole gender is inferior to his and then dismiss me when I get ANGY. Call it purity testing all you want, but for me and I suspect a lot of people this is self care
Not everyone in that scenario will be able to pull the ejection handle. A person cannot be expected to quit their job if they realize a co-worker is a fascist. And even if everyone could it would not solve fascism.
Pulling fascists out of their echo chambers and information silos is a job. It's a slow, linear process, where one person is helped at a time, that is outpaced by the efficiency of the righ-wing infosphere. The fascists in people's lives do in fact need love. It is unreasonable to expect everyone to do that. People should consider their own safety. What is reasonable is that we acknowledge the few solutions that we have. If a person has fascists in their life, has the know-how, and is willing to put in that work to help them then that is a good thing. edit: typo
Hey, sorry to necro-post. But now it's just you and me and all the internet tough guys have left. I appreciate your point of view and I am curious about something you said.
How can the "political ideology" of fascism every "be defeated"? Even accepting that you can "defeat" an ideology, and that fascism is even meaningfully thought of as an ideology at all (which I don't think is a helpful lens), fascism works, and it works because of elements of human psychology that we can't simply get rid of. People will always be able to enlist the support of others by throwing vulnerable people under the bus. How is that an ideology that can be defeated? Surely we have to address the conditions that allow human psychology to be exploited in such a way, to help people empower themselves and not feel the fear that makes hatred appealing in the first place.
Fascism is a collective puzzle that has to be solved collectively. Humans are not necessarily predisposed to fail or succeed this puzzle. Fascism takes advantage of human tribalism, but any person is still capable of rationalizing that fascism is not in either their self-interest or a larger collective self-interest. Fascism is self-destructive.
Fascists have to make good on their promise to eliminate the out-groups they demonize. In order to stay in power, the fascists have to keep dividing a country's population into new in-groups and out-groups. The subjective hierarchies they construct and adhere to are based on unattainable ideals. If this process is not stopped externally, the fascists eventually have to kill everyone. This includes the fascists drinking the flavor-aid.
The only way for humanity to survive fascism is to educate ourselves and each other about these self-destructive ideologies. That everyone is imperfect and everyone deserves to live no matter where they fall on subject hierarchies. Anyone who is seriously considering fascism as means of self-preservation can conclude that this ideology will lead to their own destruction and the destruction of the people they care about. Fascism logically contradicts it's own false promises of security and prosperity. Once people understand this, people will then be open to other ideologies to solve their problems that do not involve demonizing groups of people.
People of course have to be given complete information as part of their education on fascism and other self-destructive ideologies. If all a person gets is fascist propaganda, as is happening in the US, then it shouldn't be surprising when people stuck in echo chambers become fascists.
Ideologies can work as far as convincing people to adopt the ideology. However fascism does not work as far as solving the economic problems that drive people to look for solutions in the first place. No amount of genocide of a society's existing population improves a person's material conditions in that society. That kind of genocide is likely to eventually destabilize the society that is committing the genocide. The human psychology that can make us all susceptible to fascism does not prevent us from seeing it for what it is, inherently self-destructive. The human population destroys itself as part of implementing fascism.
There will always be con artists that try to demonize people to get what they want. But if people know that not no amount of demonizing can put food on the table or keep people safe they aren't going to fall for it.
Not to blow you off, but maybe create a new post to continue this discussion and send me a link if you want my thoughts specifically. This post's comment section got glowy.
You seem to be absolving them of any responsibility here. Brainwashing isn't magical, they have simply been convinced to be evil.
Responsibility implies action. The majority of people in our country who have been brainwashed by the right-wing infosphere haven't done anything. If people are physically attacked by someone, they should defend themselves. But thinking fascist thoughts isn't a violation of the social contract of tolerance.
Thinking them may not be (although only because I believe in absolute freedom of thought). But voting for them certainly is!
Many of them don't realize what they are voting for. Even if a person could identify the people who knowingly vote for fascism this information does us no good. Acting preemptively on that information subverts what's left of our democracy, which is still our most effective tool against fascism. Engaging in that kind of political violence makes it harder to resit fascism. Acting retroactively on that information is an exercise in revenge which does nothing to resist fascism. Violence doesn't inherently make a person a fascist, but it is our least effective tool.
If they don't realize who they're voting for then why are they voting?
Acting on who someone votes for is not preemptive, and revenge does a good amount to resist fascism. We've seen what happens when people roll over and do nothing, and look where we are now?
They think they are voting in their own self-interest because they've been lied to.
edit in response to the above comment's edit: I'm responding to this in a later comment.
Anyone who cannot see the obvious lies of the GOP is so dumb that I don't mind lumping them in with all the people who vote red for other reasons.
The bottom line is, I refuse to absolve these people of any responsibility. They refuse to take responsibility for their ignorance, their hatred, and/or their glee at other people's suffering. If you exercise the power to vote, that comes with the responsibility of educating yourself about what you're voting on. Anything else is an incredible abuse of power. If you want to stay in your own little bubble and ignore the outside world, then you don't get to subject the rest of us to your vote. These people are hurting us. Removing education opportunities. Killing public transport. Enabling corruption. Appointing phony judges. Polluting the planet. Stealing from us. Literally killing us. I refuse to let that slide.
Information silos aren't an intelligence test. Anyone who has only false information will come to incorrect conclusions.
Whether a person should be held to account for their voting is a moot point as acting on the information presents the same issues I raised in my argument earlier. I believe people should not be held to account for their vote. If all the fascists did was vote we would be in no danger. I take issue with fascists who will do more violent things than just vote.
The problem is the people who are brainwashed do not know this. People are trapped in information silos via their ignorance. That's how information silos work.
https://www.cfr.org/blog/2020-election-numbers
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/10/17670992/study-white-americans-alt-right-racism-white-nationalists
The study is from 2018 but I think it's still relevant even when taking account everything that's happened since Jan 6th. The total number of self-identifying fascists in the worst case scenario could not currently exceed 11 million Americans. Even in the worst case scenario, the total number of self-identifying fascists is small compared to the US population, which is somewhere between 330 to 340 million people. The total number of self-identifying fascists, is probably at most only a few million people, maybe fewer. The right-wing infosphere's ability to garner tens of millions of votes, despite spreading the ideas held by a small fraction of the population, is what makes it so dangerous. That's why spreading true information is so important.
Condemning everyone who voted Trump to political violence is self-defeating. With that strategy we are effectively creating tens of millions of enemies.
edit: This is in response to the above comment's edit. Political violence is preemptive if it's done before a fascist takeover and it's revenge if done after a fascist takeover. If the fascists takeover has already been completed then the revenge isn't about resisting it. Political violence will not deter fascists. We already know capital punishment doesn't deter violent crime.
https://www.amnestyusa.org/blog/a-clear-scientific-consensus-that-the-death-penalty-does-not-deter/
I admire your dedication and sources.
Anyone who doesn't realize that they're consuming media from an information silo could stand to be a bit more intelligent. No silo is perfect; at some point, even if they don't independently seek new sources of information, they'll come into contact with one. Fox news watchers know CNN exists, they simply refuse to watch it. To be fair, I don't watch a lot of Fox either, but I do get my news from at least more than one source!
You've said this a few times and I'm beginning to believe we might not be on the same page here. I'm not necessarily advocating for violence (although it would be valid IMO to claim that it would be justified). I'm saying that voting carries with it a moral responsibility. When someone is responsible for an act that negatively effects many people, something should happen, but what that something is varies with the act and the nature of their responsibility. I think a primary method of response in this case could simply be acknowledging that the act was negative and showing the voter how it has hurt people.
Same as above, do you mean we shouldn't harm them or we shouldn't acknowledge how they are harming us?
Voting is action. Voting for someone who has promised to implement a set of policies is voting for those policies (at least, in comparison to all other options). For any policy that you have voted on applying, you bear some responsibility for its effects. In politics, a policy can be basically anything. They can literally kill, save lives, impoverish, enrich, etc. Voting for a policy that you know will kill someone is violence. Any of these effects that can be easily predicted are partially your responsibility to bear.
A fascist that does not vote can be stopped by the force of law. A fascist that does vote decides what the law is. That is far more dangerous.
This describes the issue accurately I think. The solution is still to educate them to break the silo, or at least convince them to be truly isolated and not vote.
100% agreed.
This is also true. Just because someone is currently doing something bad, that doesn't always mean that the beat course of action is punishment. Sometimes you can prevent the most negative outcomes by being less confrontational.
Preemptive political violence is undesirable only because you lose some justification. It is often the theoretically correct move to prevent a fascist takeover, but cannot be implemented because not everyone is convinced that it is justified yet or ever. See eg. Germany, which can dismantle entire political parties if they threaten the democratic order.
Violence after a hostile takeover is not only revenge, but also necessary to retake control. I see no issue with this whatsoever; the revenge is a bonus to the necessity.
I think we're on the same page here in terms of the appropriate response to the rise of fascism and similar ideologies. The difference is that I view it as morally wrong to fall for the grift and/or to vote for bad policies.
The death penalty may not prevent violent crime, but education, assistance, and sanctions are much more effective.
We should not harm people or jail them for their vote. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging their vote is harming people. It is a factually correct statement that their vote is harming people.
A person knowingly voting for the fascist takeover, but doing nothing else is a fascist. In the event of a successful fascist takeover they will be far outnumbered by people who do not realize what they are voting for. So, yes, fascists deciding the law is more dangerous than domestic terrorism. However, my issue is with the people who implement the fascist laws.
The legislatures who write the laws, the police who arrest the out-groups, the courts who sentence them to the camps, assuming people even get a trial, and the executioners at the camp who detain the out-groups and participate in the firing squads. All the people who are implementing fascism and those who are just following orders. If none of these people made the choices that they did, in this hypothetical, then the fascists could vote all they want, but it would get them nothing.
I've brought this up in my argument because the people who know they are voting for the fascist takeover when they vote are the ones who could qualify as doing something morally wrong to me. This is of course subjective. A lot of them would be invisible to scrutiny if all they did was vote. Which in theory, could be a majority of fascists.
While these people have broken the social contract of tolerance, the social contract of tolerance is not a law that carries a death penalty for breaking it. Nor is it worth punishing tens of millions of ignorant people, who did something harmful, but didn't do it knowingly. These tens of millions of people have not broken the social contract of tolerance. Also, I would argue tolerance is an objective measurable binary. Either someone is tolerating a group or they aren't.
Political violence destabilizes democracy, our most effective tool for resisting fascism. It undermines the peaceful transfer of power which is a cornerstone of our democracy. Germany dismantling political parties isn't political violence, although it is a preemptive action, so the peaceful transfer of power is preserved. The dismantled political parties had broken the social contract of tolerance.
I am not arguing this is an issue. I am arguing this is not an example of resisting fascism. This is an example of defeating a fascist dictatorship militarily. I bring up resisting fascism, as in preventing the fascist takeover, because that is what the meme refers to. Acting retroactively by definition does not prevent the fascist takeover.
My point being that these alternative methods are also much more effective at preventing fascism from spreading as well.
When we argue about morality we end up getting into philosophy which is subjective. I'm of the opinion that if a person doesn't know what they are doing then they did nothing morally wrong. There's no math we can use to back up our opinions. They exist purely as subjective views on life. This to me is unproductive discourse because we can argue about this topic in this way endlessly and never be able to draw any actionable conclusions.
Instead I prefer to argue about utility. Utility can be measured and thus we can harness math as part of our arguments. This is useful discourse because we can arrive at the same conclusions about a variety of topics. The disagreements we are left with become a discussion of optimal strategies which we can easily compare and contrast. We can in theory, reach a consensus about what we should do to solve problems.
This meme is about the use of violence in the context of preventing a fascist takeover. This entire comment section is glowier than a platypus under a black light. I think the feds didn't even have to post or comment here, this is the state of left-wing discourse on lemmy. If you're not arguing for violence then say that up front. I think violence based on voting history is actively detrimental to resisting the fascist takeover, so I argue against that. Whether or not violence based on voting history is justified is subjective and does nothing to ascertain its viability as a solution. My opinion is that violence based on voting history is not justified. And yeah, I could have used 'it's' instead of 'violence based on voting history is' two extra times, but I decided it wasn't clear enough, feds.
Fascism is growing because we haven't been hanging enough of them.
...and we've never hanged any of the capitalists funding them.
People are afraid of a uncertain future? When was it any different in the past? When did people have power over the future that we do not have today?
When economic inequality was lower (at least for white people, anyway). I gotta admit he does have about 40% of a point about that.
Climate change is a terrifying prospect with billions of people expected to be forced to move within our lifetimes. The people who claim not to believe it the loudest are in fact the ones most fearful of changes that they can not control. For only one example.
You act like the world is static. It is incredibly dynamic. All periods in human history are not interchangeable. Your point doesn't seem to be that this point in history is not especially fertile for fascism, it's that every point in history is equally fertile.
Who made the future uncertain?
Perhaps the very same people funding fascists, maybe?
We defeated the Nazis, but not their ideas. Fascism is a collection of ideas, so it's an ideology and a political one at that. People had to invent these ideas. They were not an inherent part of human psychology. Fascism is a collective puzzle that we all have to solve together.
Violence in self-defense is necessary to stall for time. However, no matter how many fascists die, if fascist ideas are not defeated then there will always be more fascists. There is no benefit in breaking the social contract of tolerance first. We are in an information race, so the spreading of true information is always more useful than violence.
People should defended themselves regardless of the political ideology of their attackers. Once that's done for the day though it's back to spreading socialism. Fascism is growing because neo-liberalism denies people the ability to solve their economic problems. Which in our case are caused by late-stage capitalism. edit: typo
Bullcrap. Fascism is a feature specific to liberal nation states and there's absolutely nothing fundamentally liberal about human psychology.
As satisfying as it may be, the problem is that the fash gets back up after the bash. There was a pretty extensive study done on this in the 1940s, and they found quite a few methods for better handling the fash.
Well? Let's hear em!