this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2024
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Showerthoughts
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I have family in Utah and there's a pretty common joke in this vein.
Why do you always invite two Mormons to a party?
Because if you only invite one they will drink all your beer.
Every Mormon I've ever met is very serious about walking the talk, alone or not. They're probably more serious about following the rules of their religion than any other religion. Well, them and Muslims, but Mormons seem happier doing it.
They're serious about following the rules because their entire social and community structure stresses conformity. If you break the norms of the faith there are serious repercussions and you can lose your entire family, community, and support structure. When they're alone with others who aren't of the faith they are definitely far more lax. I've drank beer and even had chocolate with Mormons before lol.
"[...] even had chocolate with Mormons [...]"?
Uh. There is absolutely nothing in the Mormon Word of Wisdom that says anything about chocolate. There isn't even anything about caffeine. The phrase used is "hot drinks", which has been interpreted by the Mor(m)on prophets to mean specifically coffee and tea (but not herbal tea). A particularly zealous bishop or stake president might counsel against caffeine consumption, but AFAIK they aren't going to prevent you from going to a Mormon temple if you chug a case of Red Bull and Bawls every single day.
Source: raised Mormon, was active for 25-ish years, former missionary.
Bit of an aside but I love fucking with (ex)-you guys. I have a stack of pamphlets from The Church of the SubGenius by my door and am well practiced in the religious dogma contained within, I turn the tables on em real quick and talk about our great guru J. R. "Bob" Dobbs as long as I can hold them while they get visibly annoyed lmao. See how they like it for a change!
I used to have a problem with jehovas witnesses waking me up regularly because I kept a night schedule. Like, every week or two, I'd be woken up in the middle of my sleep cycle by them.
Politely informed them I was solidly not religious, nor did I have any interest in religion at all.
They came back.
Asked them to remove me from their circuit.
They came back.
Started getting mildly rude, cutting them off and asking them to not knock on my door again.
They came back.
I answered the door in nothing but boxers and told them I don't care about their zombie Jesus.
Sweet uninterrupted sleep from then on.
Worked for a company that was entirely JWs, some of the most genuinely nice people I ever met, but knowing the whole process behind the scenes and how constrictive the lifestyle is, it was always off putting.
I was never witnessed to other than just general inquiry to get to know me in passing by coworkers. But their doctrine basically states that if I'm not a JW, I'm a non-person. I don't know how many of them believe it, but still.
They all have designated zones to do their "service" so if you refuse they'll still come back because they believe their ticket into heaven is to convince you what they say is true.
If anyone else who reads this ever has problems with them coming to their door, best way to get them to take you off their list is say "I've already been excommunicated from another kingdom hall in (insert town from 2hr+ away)"
Well, there's the trick. I don't think I could say those words without breaking. I'd be demanding a shrubbery before I could stop myself.
Yes, shrubberies are my trade -- I am a shrubber. My name is Roger the Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.
Hey, I totally get it. I was a complete douchebag when I was a missionary, nearly 30 years ago, and we def. deserved a lot of the shit that we got.
I'm never mean to them or anything, I just flip the script, just so much fun lol!
The way it was always explained to me was anything containing even a small amount of caffeine was problematic. I appreciate you correcting me on this.
TBH, this is one of the many, many things about Mormonism that makes no fucking sense at all to modern sensibilities. Some Mormons do interpret it to mean zero caffeine, but that's not the official doctrine.
Honestly, the reason is very likely that, when Joe Smith Jr. was formulating his doctrine, there was a psuedo-science movement at the time that believed that hot beverages of any kind were bad for you. When you really start digging into the Mormon theology, it's clear that the doctrine JS Jr. was teaching was strongly based off of new religious movements that existed in the area, at the time.
Yeah… unfortunately, confusion about this particular subject exists because members often look for the underlying justification on things and then extrapolate from there.
(I’m going to paraphrase and shorten things a lot here so we don’t have to dive into definitions and technicalities. Bear with me.)
The doctrine brought forth about this is what’s referred to as “The Word of Wisdom,” which was a short outline of what things were deemed as “harmful” or otherwise “unsuitable” for the body. The idea being that the Lord was promising to people that if they didn’t ingest these things, they would live a healthier life as a result. “Hot drinks” was mentioned and clarified a century later to mean “tea and coffee.” Furthermore, “tea” refers to black and green tea, and not necessarily herbal tea.
People, by nature, want to understand the “why” behind things. You also have people who want to understand where the line begins and ends so they can tiptoe it. Enter the rumor that since the “hot drinks” referred to “tea and coffee,” they both have not-so-insignificant amounts of caffeine in them. Obviously that must mean drinks like Coca-Cola and Pepsi, plus foods such as chocolate, must also be in violation of this, right?
Well, the issue with that is people think they’re applying “the spirit of the law” (meaning the larger picture behind it) when they’re actually applying “the word of the law” (taken at face value). The idea behind the Word of Wisdom is to take care of your body by having a balanced diet and not eating too much of a particular thing. Certain items were called out explicitly; if caffeine were the true issue, then it would’ve been called out instead. But it wasn’t, and there have been some clarifications to emphasize that caffeine itself is not the explicit reason behind it. (However the idea of “addiction” could extend to caffeine if someone were to consume large amounts of it regularly, but addiction or dependency can occur even to things like Tylenol when too much is consumed, so targeting it specifically is silly.)
So in short, it’s a mixture of misunderstanding and overzealous practice. Caffeine is perfectly fine. Just like anything else: make sure you’re not consuming too much of it.
I really cannot blame anyone for the confusion because a lot of this comes from the LDS Church itself and their often confusing clarifications of their positions. Like with caffeine specifically they have a long history of forbidding its use and then suddenly they reinterpreted it the way you’re suggesting. I’d say that’s fairly atypical for most religions nowadays and it’s a unique aspect of the LDS church that their interpretations are fluid like that.
The alternative for most other religions in the US is just that they never get specific and so most members hold conflicting views and interpretations. Both of the techniques I find very odd since you’d think that these differences would have faith based answers, but instead appear almost bureaucratic in nature
I had to think about this. I can’t seem to find any articles in a quick search where church leaders (a Prophet or Apostle) explicitly forbade its use. I have, however, found many excerpts where leaders who do not sit at the head (Quorum of the Seventy, BIshop, etc) have made statements warning against it or even flat out saying that members should not ingest it.
Given the structure and lack of corrective statements coming from above, I would attribute the confusion to local and regional leaders being overzealous by including caffeine explicitly in their teachings. Some have worded things in a manner I would find accurate, such as “high-dose caffeinated energy drinks” or “excessive soda consumption which results in high caffeine and sugar intake.” Others though explicitly call out caffeine as an “evil,” describing experiences with caffeine withdrawals or members deciding to not ingest alcohol, nicotine, nor caffeine. These mentions seem to have drummed up confusion primarily in the 80s (a lot of “Letter to the Editor” publications from this period seem to have been back-and-forth arguments among members, lol).
Initially I didn’t think the history is as “long” as you claimed, but then I realized that the 80s was just forty years ago, and with some results of the topic dating as far back as the 70s, it would mean it’s been an intra-member debate for almost half a century. And half a century is practically a lifetime 😖
Hey, I clearly remember that there was only caffeine-free Coke at Ricks College (apparently now re-branded as BYU-Idaho), and it was a Big Fucking Deal when they started allowing Coca-Cola in the campus stores and dining hall. So even if it wasn't "official", it was a very clear cultural issue, to the point where I don't think that most people could have drawn a line between what was official doctrine, and what was commonly accepted as doctrine.
There also wasn't an internet at the time, so members couldn't readily find some of the information about the nitty gritty.
Oh most certainly. I attended BYU Provo and there was a lot of effort from students to allow the sale of caffeinated soda on campus, but the belief was that the university was holding out only because a large number of alumni might stop donating if it were to occur.
(This was more recent though.)
The culture amongst members can and often will have items that seem to go against or misinterpret official doctrine. I don’t disagree that the church would need to reiterate the doctrine to clear that up for people. What I personally don’t know is how often is appropriate for such corrections to take place. If you correct them too often they may choose to not seek out answers themselves but instead wait for a leader to explain it to them, which runs against the teaching of proactive scripture study.
Ok, I should stop there. Starting to nitpick human nature as though I’m any better (and we know that’s not fucking true in the slightest, lol)
The church has tended to tread very, very lightly on what they're willing to declare to be doctrine, and what they aren't, because they're aware of how bad it looks when they have to walk doctrine back. The November policy, for instance, was explicitly called out as being revelation from god (via Russel Nelson, in 2016), but the church had to walk it back in 2019 because they were hemorrhaging members and getting incredibly bad press. (Plus, the whole article of faith thing about, "we believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression" is kind of undermined by not letting children with gay parents be baptized.)
As long as it's dogma rather than doctrine, the church has the benefits of members conforming, without the same risk of blowback. That is, if/when it's necessary to roll something back, it's much easier to say that it was never doctrine in the first place, and that the mind of god hasn't changed.
That is the apologetic version, yeah. But it begs the question: if it's okay to drink caffeine, why is it that an occasional cup of coffee will keep you out of the temple, but a case of Red Bull every day won't? If it's about avoiding addiction, then surely any addiction would make you unworthy to go to the temple. If it's hot drinks, then why isn't cold brew coffee okay? Why is yerba mate fine, and ice tea is not? One assumes that a god would be able to formulate a standard that can be applied cleanly, to everything, and communicate that clearly to his prophet.
Honestly, the when you look at the circumstances that existed contemporaneously when JS Jr. was formulating his theology, it's clear that the Word of Wisdom is essentially a slightly reformulated version of the temperance movement. It's also interesting to note that it wasn't a requirement until, IIRC, the 1920s or so; JS Jr. and Brigham Young were both pretty big drinkers of hard liquor, for instance. It's easy to point to tobacco and say, see?, it's prophetic! But there was a pretty strong temperance movement against tobacco at the time as well. (Meanwhile, the evidence we have right now seems to indicate that coffee and tea are probably good for you, and evidence regarding alcohol is leaning towards it probably not being healthy even in very moderate drinkers.)
The issue wouldn’t be the god in question, but instead the people.
Consider the fact that Moses was given the Ten Commandments for all the Israelites to follow. They’re incredibly simple and straightforward. Yet there still was a division in how these were observed, which was documented well in the New Testament.
The two most notable (outlined in the New Testament) are the Pharisees and Sadducees. The Pharisees can be summarized as a group which added man-made rules or guidelines on top of the established doctrines. Certain stories, such as Christ healing a man on the Sabbath, demonstrate that the intention of a commandment can be forgotten by people who choose to observe by the letter of the law. The Sadducees can be summarized as a group which chose to observe only doctrines that are written. Both groups, however, largely ignored the foundation behind the 10 Commandments.
Christ explains it as simply as can be. Love the Lord above all else, and love they neighbor as you do yourself. The 10 Commandments were already straightforward to begin with, but the two greater commandments set the standard you suggest such a deity should be capable of doing.
Even still, as simple as they can be, the issue often becomes that some people want to be told what exactly they can or cannot do, while others want to justify their actions on the basis of technicality.
All of this to say, the doctrine for the LDS church is based on the idea of obedience towards God. It doesn’t matter why He says to not drink coffee, just that He promises you’ll be blessed if you do. So by virtue of the two greater commandments, loving God means following His instructions. And that alone should be reason enough to do so.
(Mind you, I disagree with how this is often put into practice, as a lot of guilt-tripping occurs for those who choose not to follow these teachings. At its core, these actions are antithetical to Christ’s teachings and examples, which are to love all unconditionally as we are all sinners in the eyes of the Lord. But again, the issue lies with people, who aren’t perfect, rather than the doctrines put forth.)
Nah, if Mormons had an official drink, it'd be mountain dew
But also mate which is hot, caffeinated, leaf juice, is a-ok and totally not tea.
In my experience, a lot of "devoutly" religious people are like this.
I grew up Independent Fundamental Baptist (westboro, but less vocally homophobic) and my dad told me a few years ago he secretly kept a stash of alcohol in the garage while he was quite aggressively teaching that the Bible expressly forbade consumption of alcohol that could get you drunk because of a long argument that basically amounts to "Paul said so." (The proper response to that is "fuck Paul", obv. Paul was an asshat.)
You can twist anything into anything if you try hard enough, and they're really good at it.
While there must certainly be some devout Muslims who try their best to keep the "rules", as I'd expect in any group, a lot of Muslims are not so different frombthe rest of us non-Muslims.
My coworker is a former Muslim who had to leave his home country due to persecution when he became a Christian. Here, he's made Muslim friends who regularly invite him over for dinner and they serve... Pork. They say because he is not a Muslim, they respect that and don't force him to eat halal. But why does not forcing him to eat halal equate to them eating pork?
They are genuinely his friends, but he is also their "excuse" to break halal.
When I was in Dubai for work it was explained to me that while it is prohibited to drink alcohol for Muslims under normal situations, they are allowed to have alcohol as part of business meetings/dinners since they court an international audience for various business prospects which is crucial for their economic future as a county.
Supposedly, that's why everyone has a "business", and you always see 2 bros in white robes chillin at a restaurant having drinks for a "meeting".
LOL, that's funny. They're definitely making an excuse to eat pork.
The Muslims I know are pretty strict about following the commandments. Of course nobody's perfect, but they pray 5 times per day, take their prayer rug to work, and follow their dietary restrictions. Of course I'm not around them all the time though, that's just what I've seen.
The person who is the most serious about it that I know isn't Arabic or Persian. He's an African American living in the American South, and he's very serious about his religion. The Muslims I know that seem the most relaxed about it are immigrants from Iran. Several of their first generation American kids are atheists.
I live in Malaysia, and Islam is the dominant religion here. Yet every store has a "haram corner" where they sell alcohol and pork, and some smaller supermarkets are even completely non-halal by default.
And while I haven't seen a muslim eating pork, I had a few beers with some on several occasions. And I haven't seen or heard anyone praying, with the exception for Malacca city, which is apparently a bit of a stricter area.
I guess every religion old enough has such kind of loopholes. I know from Roman Catholic that there can be made up so many exceptions that the 40 days of lent before Easter books down to a few days of actually fasting. No lent if you're travelling (commute to work counts), no lent if you have guests, and of course no lent if you are a guest somewhere else. And Sunday is exempt from lent anyways.
But do they talk the walk?
Most definitely. They even go on special years long missions to talk to everyone who will listen about the walk.
And, depending on where in the world they go, they may have to walk a lot to talk to people about the walk.
it can't possibly be that you're more exposed to Mormons, right
More exposed to them than who? Idk what you're trying to imply.
than you are to Muslims
Ah, gotcha. No, I know more Muslims than Mormons.
ok... so where do you meet around 20 Mormons but even more Muslims?
Waiting in line at your mom's house.
sure buddy, like your old muslim girlfriend from canada in the 80s. we get ya.
K
That'll get you on a list.
How many Mormons have you met?
It seemed we'd talk to a new pair every weekend when I was a kid. The visits got shorter when he was watering the garden.
The ones I met were upset I photographed their ID.
Not a lot. Probably 20 in my lifetime, and only 3 are my friends.
Jews don’t recognize Jesus.
Protestants don’t recognize the Pope.
Mormons don’t recognize each other in wendover
That was the joke about Baptists in my hometown. It was impossible to only invite one since everyone knew everyone's families.