I'm not talking about the consumption of animals here, to be clear. What I'm talking about is spending days and a bunch of money planning to kill something, doing the killing, and skinning/eviscerating what was killed, and often displaying the stuffed corpse. Hunters and fishers refuse to admit they're obsessed with taking pleasure in killing something.
Miss me with the "tradition" stuff, it's just peer pressure from the dead and a fallacious argument. Don't tell me it's to eat, like I said, I'm not talking about the consumption here, so please prove to me you are literate by not bringing up that point. And don't tell me you're respectful to the animals you kill; I don't believe the planning, stalking, and killing is a good way to show respect.
Well you're clearly not literate.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deer_management
The population is managed through hunting to as to avoid the overpopulation of deer, which is catastrophic for the ecology.
Not because every single hunter is some sort of psychopath. What a childish notion.
This entire thread is giving me deja vu from a thread I thought I read on Reddit years ago.
Not saying this one was, but I wonder how many posts are copy pasted from old reddit posts and placed her now. The comments all seem familiar as well. Maybe I'm just tired.
I don't copypaste, but I have argued the same thing on Reddit before, so you may have seen me arguing the exact same thing.
Or someone else, because it's pretty common sense.
If you're having an honest conversation here, the appeal to common sense is a fallacy.
You're coming off pretty self-righteous and judgmental. If you're wanting to change minds I doubt a accusatory stance is helpful.
It's not an appeal to common sense to make arguments and then comment on those, clear arguments as common sense.
Maybe you need to spend a bit more time studying your fallacy charts.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy
Address the actual arguments, instead of trying to "win" an argument by trying to point out a fallacy (which wasn't even there.)
This is a manmade problem though. We exterminated all or most of the predators that would usually do the duty of population control in our stead, because said predators didn't differentiate between livestock and wild animals.
What of it?
Would you happen to have a time machine so we can go back and change history so humans never replace said apex predators, or does the fact that "we did it" mean that we don't need to keep hunting and we can just let species overpopulate and destroy the ecology completely, even for themselves and other species of plants and animals?
Man-made or not, it exists now. You can't just go "this problem was made by people, so I'm not gonna do anything about it!".
I get that we have some species that need to be culled for the sake of the greater good /circle of life / balance of nature, etc., but I have no desire to do that work myself.
Hunting is hobby-murder regardless of the justification you put behind it.
Not all killing is murder — and to pretend the killing of any animal is takes away from actual homicide.
"I realise this is a necessary part for society to function the way it does, but I think every single person who does it is doing it for the sheer pleasure of killing"
Using that same logic, all plumbers have a scat-fetish?
It's beyond amazing to me how disconnected some people are from nature. Death is seen as something horrible, instead of something that literally every single organism will one day face.
Yes there are really weird dudes in hunting groups, but there are also completely normal, non-psychopathic non-murderers, and if you pretend there isn't, then I don't think you're ready to have an adult conversation about the subject.
Until the animals are able to speak up for themselves and tell us that they want to die, killing is murder regardless of the mental gymnastics you perform around it.
If I happened to crash a car into your car and you die, I won't get convicted for murder.
If I push you in anger and you happen to crack your head on the pavement badly enough and die — I might get accused of murder, but more than likely get convicted of manslaughter.
Doesn't matter how you define your own private language, but in English, words have meanings.
You're just deadset against something, because you're an absolutist who can't listen to reason. If those "senseless murderers" stop their "murdering", a lot MORE people AND animals will DIE.
That shouldn't be too hard to understand, I think, so I must conclude that you are willfully ignoring it.
Just like you're willfully ignoring the part where your childish logic being applied anywhere else shows just how ridiculous it is.
You've yet to answer whether you think all plumbers think about scat porn all the time?
Hunters actively set out to kill things, spend thousands on equipment, and pay fees for the right to do so. Convince yourself however you need to, but hunters are murderers. You don't accidentally cover yourself in camo and deer piss to go hide in a tree and wait for a deer to come along so you can kill it and claim some sort of "manly" victory over nature or whatever.
Hunters have a desire to kill things. The only difference between a hunter and a serial killer is a modicum of self-control about target selection.
You're extremely childish and there's no having an adult conversation with you I see.
You just won't listen and use these ridiculously childish notions that are beyond easy to prove wrong as absolute truth, and you also need to ignore most of my replies.
Because you don't know shit about hunting, but wish to paint every single person as a "murderer".
Are vets psychopathic murderers? Because most of what most veterinarians do is just put animals down, day in and day out.
But I'm sure in your tiny mind vets are animal loving heroes, despite them killing a lot more animals than hunters. And they do it year round.
You're still ignoring the FACT that if these hunters didn't exist, there would be way more problems and more deaths of humans and animals.
You have to ignore it, because it breaks down your childish rhetoric.
You're an extremely simple minded child who refuses to acknowledge the reality of nature. Death is a part of life, no matter how removed from it you've been kept by some religious parents or something.
So, how many hunters do you know in real life? Why are you ignoring the definition of murder? Why are you ignoring literally everything that I've said? Is it because you hold simplistic childish notion that you can't defend in a rational adult conversation? (It is, yes.)
Thanks for not bringing up eating! I really appreciate it.
Yes, population management is a real thing. Not denying that, and I probably should have mentioned it.
I still find the people that want to participate in it for fun very creepy.
Some are rather weird, but I can understand liking nature hobbies in which you are alone or with a few buddies if you've had social problems. (Talking about some people I know.) But yeah. Some are weird. But also, some aren't. I don't think killing an animal means you're a psychopath, per se.
Most of the hobby isn't about the kill. Hell, most of the year killing them isn't even allowed.
Since you mentioned eating though, I'll say that I actually really enjoy game meat. It's relatively cruelty free. An optimal killshot might not still instantly kill (as in you don't aim for the brain, but the heart), but at least they've lived an actually free life, unlike powerfarmed cattle, from which you can almost taste the misery. (I'm a flexitarian and try to make somewhat moral choices at least most of the time.)
No, I specifically tried to avoid it, but go ahead and ignore that 🤦
Hiking is a thing you can do in nature alone or is groups that doesn't involve killing, so I don't understand your point about that making hunting less creepy. And even if most of the hobby isn't the actual killing, the rest of it is planning, setting up for, fantasizing about, talking about, etc., the killing, so that's not very convincing either. Like I get that if you have, say, cooking as a hobby that you look up recipes, buy ingredients, and eat, but nobody that has cooking as a hobby buys ingredients to not cook (raw vegans excepted 🥁🥁🛎️).
And telling me about how different flesh tastes depending on how you kill them sounds pretty creepy.
You have literally no idea what goes into deer management, do you?
Have you even ever known anyone who does that, personally?
"All of their time goes to thinking and talking and fantasising about killing".
I daresay all the hunters I know spend less time thinking about the kill than you spend time fantasising about some imaginary hunters filled with murder lust.
My brother is a ~40-year old family man. Mostly he thinks about his kids and his job. On the weekends, they might go and prepare deer feeding areas. You see, upkeep of the population is also a part of deer management.
Only a few weekends of the year do they actually kill anything. Most of the time it's just maintenance, while hiking in nature.
I don't think you realise just how important deer management is, especially in some places. The amount of deer crashes we have would skyrocket without population control. Which would mean animals and people suffering and dying.
Learn to read, maybe? It's not about how you kill them. It's about how they have lived. Which is more moral, eating a thing that didn't have the space to turn around it's whole life, or an animal which lived completely naturally it's whole life?
That's why I avoid industrially farmed animals.
You have an extremely childish, simplistic and twisted view of what deer management actually is.
Just like I said in my last comment, using your logic all plumbers are only plumbers because they have a scat fetish and fantasise about other people's excrement all day, how else would anyone be capable of doing anything like that?
Surgeons? Psychopaths, the lot of them. Must just be itching everyday to get to cut into a living person. Sickening, right, right???? /s
Damn, dude, not every hunter is a deer population manager.
Hunters do hunting, surgeons try and heal people. In one the killing is the point and in the other the cutting in incidental.
Avoiding factory farmed animals but still eating animals is something a lot of people say to pat themselves on the back, but I don't buy it.
Anyway, I can see this is a really personal thing to you and you're really upset by it. Don't think too much about why you get defensive about it, though, or why you have to carve out exceptions to try and make it less creepy.
Every single hunter in my country is, as they won't get a hunting license otherwise.
I understand that hunting culture and cultural values aren't the same everywhere, which is something you seem to be having trouble with.
I don't know a single "trophy-hunter", because I'm from a small village in which deer hunting (ie deer management) was big, and "trophy-hunting" was something you'd see Americans doing on TV.
It's a really personal thing to you. You're insulting people, calling them murderers and saying they fantasise about murdering, because you don't understand what you're talking about. You have some sort of a blood sport in your head, when the hunters I know are some of the kindest people I've ever met. And even they sometimes have trouble with killing, believe it or not. My dad was a hunter. He quit around the time I was born, because they accidentally felled the mother of two calves, which isn't allowed. He never hunted anything afterwards, but ate a ton of meat. So the meat he used to get from hunting, free-range, cruelty free, now came from industrialised farms. Do you think that was a change for the better?
This is making you really upset, because you're not used to people challenging your simpleminded philosophy, which breaks down at the slightest push.
I'm the one pointing out these are normal people, you're the one foaming at the mouth about "murder fantasies".
You still refuse to answer the question of whether you think all plumbers constantly imagine scat-porn scenarios? Because that's what your logic would mean.
Telling him is personal to him is hilarious. It’s so clear you are butthurt about having a horrible opinion.
All he’s doing is explaining in a clear and concise tone why your assumptions are wrong.
You clearly cannot handle this, have nothing to refute him, so you attack him. Classic stuff right there.
You seriously think they are hunting because of a population issue? That is just why they are allowed to hunt so freely....
The hunters do not give a fuck, just want to kill some shit
You don't know a single hunter, nor did you grow up in the country.
That's painfully obvious.
You don't even know what country I'm in.
You're beyond arrogant, simplistic and naive.
They aren't allowed to hunt freely here, there's a very specific amount of felling permits.
You don't know shit and you're not willing to learn.
That's a lot of assumptions 😂 Almost all of which are completely wrong
I don't care if your butt hurt, stop whining and look inward
You don't need to kill, period.
So you're just going to put a live cow on a bun and call it a hamburger?
You don't need cow meat to live
OK, so what? I like meat
I like cocaine, but that's not a reason to do it
For less people to die and to preserve nature so it doesn't fuck itself over, yes, it is necessary to kill.
Unfortunately our ancestors replaced a lot of apex predators. And don't even get started on "reintroduce apex predators" as if you could introduce wolf pacts into European population centers.
Educate yourself instead of having these simplistic and childish outlooks.
https://wildscapedeermanagement.co.uk/pages/ecological-impact-of-deer-overpopulation?srsltid=AfmBOooycHlUD2kAm2uHkkJN8UMB38zA11iFtSMoZKcolty3qRVrJGqV
There were times my ex and I wouldn't have eaten or suffered from malnutrition of it hadn't been for hunting and raising our own food, vegetables included.
and that is a natural, beautiful, reason to kill for food. I have utmost respect for those who have to hunt their food, not for obese idiots buying slabs of hormone filled trash that gives them cancer