25
top 22 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] Stern@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

It wasn't about slavery, I mean yeah the vice president of the confederacy made a speech saying slavery was the cornerstone of the CSA, and multiple seceding states released documents that explicitly stated they were seceding in large part because of slavery, and all the seceding states were slave owning states, and West Virginia exists because they split from Virginia as they had no slaves and thus no reason to fight to hold them, and the CSA constitution mandated that any new state would be required to be a slave state... but... umm...

[-] NOT_RICK@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Whenever a chud gives me the “it wASnT AbOut SLavErY!” Line I always go ask them to read the seceding states articles of secession. South Carolina is my particular favorite since they started all.

 But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the Institution of slavery has led to a disregard of their obligations.... [The northern] States...have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress, or render useless any attempt to execute them.... Thus the constitutional compact has been deliberately broken....

The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

Those [non-slaveholding] States have assumed the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of Slavery; they have permitted the open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace...property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the Common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the Common Government, because he has declared that the "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that Slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the subversion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship persons, who, by the Supreme Law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive to its peace and safety.

Not about slavery though… fucking dipshits

[-] mustardman@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 year ago

Mississippi's is exclusively about slavery as well

[-] jballs@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

A few years ago one of my conservative neighbors tried to drop the line on me that the Civil War wasn't about slavery. I opened up the South Carolina Articles of Succession and read it out loud to him. To his credit, he accepted it and changed his mind.

[-] NOT_RICK@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

You have to really have some heavy cognitive dissonance to hear the words and not realize the lost cause myth is bullshit.

[-] son_named_bort@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

No it was about states rights, like the right to, ummm, nevermind.

[-] mindbleach@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

You missed that CSA states weren't allowed to end slavery.

So if conservatives meant things when they say words - the civil war was coincidentally about slavery-having states seeking new slavery-having allies to continue doing slavery together, after flipping out when an anti-slavery party took the white house.

But it was totes mcgoats about states' rights. Except the right to end slavery.

[-] Madison420@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I mean they're not entirely wrong, fighting slavery was a political tool not a moral imperative as it should have been and Lincoln didn't in fact want to unilaterally shut it down he wanted the nation to figure it out ideally without violence.

Ed: books people, I'm not interpreting anything Lincoln was extremely vocal about it. Listen to Lincoln, he knows Lincoln weirdly enough.

https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/slavery.htm

[-] Papergeist@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It was a moral imperative for much of the North. Lincoln only barely scraped out the Republican nomination. His main opponent was William Seward who was a "radical" abolitionist. Had Seward won the nomination, there may have been some fracturing of the newly formed Republican party. So while there was indeed a portion of the population who felt the complete abolition of slavery was too far, a huge chunk agreed with Seward. In particular, his own wife, Francis Seward. She abhorred slavery and I urge everyone to read her writings upon the subject.

[-] GentlemanLoser@ttrpg.network 0 points 1 year ago

You're part of the problem when you give "but ackshually" cover to them to continue this nonsense

[-] Madison420@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yes yes, history is nuanced but your actually a Nazi if you recognize that fact....

You see the problem there boss?

[-] GentlemanLoser@ttrpg.network 0 points 1 year ago

History is nuanced, yes. Lost Cause bullshit and slavery apologists can GTFO tho. They're not arguing in good faith so when you chime in to let everyone know how smart you are by supporting that nonsense, you know what it looks like, right?

[-] Madison420@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Bro it's factually correct, you can read Lincoln's diary discussing it. The statement "the civil war was about slavery" isn't wrong it just lacking nuance in the same way the statement I added to was.

Resolutions upon the subject of domestic slavery having passed both branches of the General Assembly at its present session, the undersigned hereby protest against the passage of the same.

They believe that the institution of slavery is founded on both injustice and bad policy; but that the promulgation of abolition doctrines tends rather to increase than to abate its evils.

They believe that the Congress of the United States has no power, under the constitution, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the different States.

They believe that the Congress of the United States has the power, under the constitution, to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia; but that that power ought not to be exercised unless at the request of the people of said District.

The difference between these opinions and those contained in the said resolutions, is their reason for entering this protest."

Dan Stone, A. Lincoln, Representatives from the county of Sangamon

[-] Ya_Boy_Skinny_Penis@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

Dude, you think if chattel slavery never existed in the South that there still would have been a civil war?

The civil war was 100% about slavery.

[-] Madison420@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago

Please quote me on that one boss.

Please refer to where I said it wasn't.

[-] davi@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

fighting a war over slavery was so fun for texas; they did it twice and the american civil war was the second one.

and then continued with segregation; you would think they learn their lesson by now. lol

[-] Aaliyah1@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

So, this annoys me to no end, because the first dude is technically right, Lincoln came in to office with no intention to outlaw slavery, although he did want to keep it confined to the states it was already legal in. And what he’s actually wrong about is that Lincoln made it about slavery to get the support of the northerners - he actually made sure that it northerners believed it was about “keeping the union together.” Remember the union still had the slave states of Kentucky, West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware and Missouri. He wanted to keep these states in the union.

Lincoln (through Seward) stressed the anti-slavery stuff to Europeans, many of whom wanted to intervene on the side of the confederacy because that was where they got their cotton. The industrial north also was a threat to industrial Europe, but the agrarian south was a source of raw materials. But by stressing the anti-slavery stuff in Europe (and then of course the emancipation proclamation which didn’t actually outlaw slavery in the border states) he ensured Europe could not intervene on behalf of the confederacy since it would be so unpopular. So, in the states it was about the union, abroad it was about slavery.

But anyway, he’s right on a technicality that, for Lincoln, it was not really about slavery. But this does not mean the war itself was not about slavery. His conclusion rests on the assumption that in a war, two sides must be diametrically opposed to one another, so if Lincoln and the north were not fighting against slavery, therefore the south could not be fighting for slavery.

But as others have pointed out, the south explicitly says they are fighting to preserve the institution of slavery. They are worried about waning political power also - if Lincoln stopped the spread of slavery across the continent as he desired, the growth of free states would mean congress would not be as evenly split between slave and free states, opening up the possibility of legislating an end to slavery.

So the war was about slavery, and would not have occurred without slavery. Often we point to the Battle of Sumter as the beginning of the civil war, but many historians also point out the popular civil war could instead be said to begin in 1859 in Harper’s Ferry, or with Bleeding Kansas and the Pottawotamie Massacre, or maybe the caning of Charles sumner or the murder of Elijah Lovejoy, or any of the political battles that arose when the US began to expand west and the question arose “what about slavery.” All of these events are directly about slavery and it would be difficult to argue otherwise.

And also, just as a last thing “many southern generals didn’t care about slavery.” I have no idea how true that is and it doesn’t matter, because the war was not fought because of southern generals but because of politicians, southern landowners, and an economy resting on the subjugation of Black people, and that’s why they were fighting.

[-] SomeoneElseMod@feddit.uk 1 points 1 year ago

This is a really well thought out and written comment. Thanks for an excellent contribution 👍🏼

[-] Aaliyah1@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

Thank you! I deal with these people in my daily life so I’m always primed for an effort post on it

[-] halvar@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

They are part right, if we really want to give them the benefit of the doubt. For the south it was absolutely about preserving slavery, but for the north abolishing it was still kind of a controversial topic.

The decision to make it about ending slavery from Lincoln's part was part tactical, even though he personally always wanted to do so anyway. It made a lot of former slaves and other black people available for enlistment and also secured the support of people opposing slavery.

But initially it was more about the southern paranoia of the north forcing them to abolish slavery and since the north could not provide any security about this, they decided to quit, which lead the north to try and preserve the union.

At least as far as I know.

[-] Buffalobuffalo@reddthat.com 1 points 1 year ago

There was an article I read a wile back so I may be misremembering. It claimed they the wealth of southern plantations was the slaves, the land and other assets were worth hardly anything. Many of these places had large amounts of debt tied to the value of their slaves. The fear was not just that the north would make slavery illegal, but that the actions being taken to limit slavery in new states would cause the price of slaves to drop and make all the rich slave owners broke.

[-] Jaysyn@kbin.social -1 points 1 year ago

Lost Cause Cultists make me sick.

this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023
25 points (96.3% liked)

Confidently Incorrect

3978 readers
1 users here now

When people are way too smug about their wrong answer.

Posting guidelines.

All posts in this community have come from elsewhere, it is not original content, the poster in this community is not OP. The person who posts in this community isn’t necessarily endorsing whatever the post is talking about and they are not looking to argue with you about the content in the post.

You are welcome to discuss and debate any topic but arguments are not welcome here. I consider debate/discussions to be civil; people with different opinions participating in respectful conversations. It becomes an argument as soon as someone becomes aggressive, nasty, insulting or just plain unpleasant. Report argumentative comments, then ignore them.

There is currently no rule about how recent a post needs to be because the community is about the comeback part, not the topic.

Rules:

• Be civil and remember the human.

• No trolling, insults or name calling. Swearing in general is fine, but not to insult someone.

• No bigotry of any kind, including homophobia, transphobia, sexism and racism.

• You are welcome to discuss and debate any topic but arguments are not welcome here. I consider debate/discussions to be civil; people with different opinions participating in respectful conversations. It becomes an argument as soon as someone becomes aggressive, nasty, insulting or just plain unpleasant. Report argumentative comments, then ignore them.

• Try not to get too political. A lot of these posts will involve politics, but this isn’t the place for political arguments.

• Participate in good faith - don’t be aggressive and don’t argue for arguements sake.

• Mark NSFW posts if they contain nudity.

• Satire is allowed but please start the post title with [satire] so other users can filter it out if they’d like.

Please report comments that break site or community rules to the mods. If you break the rules you’ll receive one warning before being banned from this community.

This community follows the rules of the lemmy.world instance and the lemmy.org code of conduct. I’ve summarised them here:

  1. Be civil, remember the human.
  2. No insulting or harassing other members. That includes name calling.
  3. Respect differences of opinion. Civil discussion/debate is fine, arguing is not. Criticise ideas, not people.
  4. Keep unrequested/unstructured critique to a minimum.
  5. Remember we have all chosen to be here voluntarily. Respect the spent time and effort people have spent creating posts in order to share something they find amusing with you.
  6. Swearing in general is fine, swearing to insult another commenter isn’t.
  7. No racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia or any other type of bigotry.
  8. No incitement of violence or promotion of violent ideologies.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS