this post was submitted on 24 Jan 2025

241 points (98.4% liked)

Atheism

4212 readers

162 users here now

Community Guide

Archive Today will help you look at paywalled content the way search engines see it.

Statement of Purpose

This is a support and conversation community for people who don't believe in gods.
Superstition hucksters have no reason to subscribe or post here at all.
If you are looking to debate or proselytize, options will be linked lower in the sidebar.

Acceptable

Honest questions or conversations.
Discussions on parenting or advice.
Struggles, frustrations, coming out.
Atheist memes. We can have fun!
News headlines relevant to atheism.

Unacceptable

Depending on severity, you might be warned before adverse action is taken.

Anything against site rules.
Illegal and/or NSFW material.
Troll posts and comments. There will be no attempt to explain what that means.
Leading questions, agenda pushing, or disingenuous attempts to bait members.
Personal attacks or flaming.

Inadvisable

Self promotion or upvote farming.
Excessive shitposting or off-topic discussion.

Application of warnings or bans will be subject to moderator discretion. Feel free to appeal. If changes to the guidelines are necessary, they will be adjusted.

If you vocally harass or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.

Likewise, if you are a member, sympathizer or a resemblant of a group that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of any other group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you you will be banned on sight.

Provable means able to provide proof to the moderation, and, if necessary, to the community.

 ~ /c/nostupidquestions

If you want your space listed in this sidebar and it is especially relevant to the atheist or skeptic communities, PM DancingPickle and we'll have a look!

Connect with Atheists

Matrix: #atheism:envs.net

Help and Support Links

Streaming Media

This is mostly YouTube at the moment. Podcasts and similar media - especially on federated platforms - may also feature here.

Orgs, Blogs, Zines

Mainstream

Bibliography

Start here...

...proceed here.

Proselytize Religion

Convince an Atheist

From Reddit

As a community with an interest in providing the best resources to its members, the following wiki links are provided as historical reference until we can establish our own.

founded 2 years ago

MODERATORS

Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world

241

Trump Will Bulldoze the Separation of Church and State (progressive.org)

submitted 6 days ago by dumnezero@piefed.social to c/atheism@lemmy.world

47 comments fedilink hide all child comments

top 47 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] fallowseed@lemmy.world -1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

deepseek tell me about aipac

[–] dumnezero@piefed.social 1 points 2 days ago

deepseek tell me about aipac

[–] alphapuggle@programming.dev 28 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Not really much to bulldoze

[–] ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 12 points 6 days ago

Well, there's some left after the decades of Trump's predecessors chipping away from it, then democrats barely building any back due to fear of alienating moderate republican voters.

[–] inclementimmigrant@lemmy.world 3 points 5 days ago

The only thing really left to bulldoze is to tax the ever living shit out of these 'churches' and make it official.

[–] Bronzebeard@lemm.ee 7 points 5 days ago

Then we bulldozing the churches right back

[–] BigMacHole@lemm.ee 13 points 6 days ago

So? The Founders weren't Perfect (except when it came to Defending School Shooters, then they WERE Perfect!)!

[–] UncleGrandPa@lemmy.world 6 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Mandatory Church attendance?

[–] whotookkarl@lemmy.world 3 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

We're already paying to subsidize churches without taxing them, including the ones that keep getting caught trying to hide clergy guilty of SA from law enforcement

https://www.keranews.org/news/2024-08-05/north-texas-pastors-step-down-amid-controversies

https://www.bishop-accountability.org/2024/12/a-look-at-the-sexual-abuse-crisis-in-the-catholic-church-in-2024/

Multi-year investigative reports out of 2023 in Illinois, 2024 Maryland, etc

[–] EtherWhack@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago

Remind me to get a technicolor coat if so

[+] givesomefucks@lemmy.world -30 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (5 children)

He doesn't have to bulldoze it, Biden already paved the way.

Over like 50 years of politics he never showed away from saying "god" drove him and he follows Catholic teachings...

It's almost definitely why he did absolutely nothing to protect abortion rights.

When's the last time you heard a Dem talk about removing "god" from our money? Or any other part of our government?

[–] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 39 points 6 days ago (2 children)

This "All or nothing" bullshit helped put that asshole back in office, and it needs to stop.

Harris got shit on because there was always MORE she could have done. Simply not being a rapist felon should have been more than enough to win that election, but we kept nit picking about everything on our wish list that she couldn't do, and helped convince the country that she wasn't good enough for us, and now look where we are. We got NOTHING on our wishlist and are likely to lose a lot of what we had before.

A full blown anti-theist candidate would scare too many people. They would be even easier to vilify than Biden or Harris. We need to take little steps in the right direction, not just sit and watch democracy fall apart because the only person who could have stopped it "didn't threaten to bomb Israel enough" or "never mentioned changing what gets printed on the money".

Like a child that throws a tantrum about not being able to get two desserts, so they get nothing at all.

[–] Halasham@dormi.zone 3 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Honestly, we've had the "little steps in the right direction" off and on for eight decades now. Look where it's gotten us.

When was the last time a powerful politician gave a damn about the poor rather than going on about the "middle class"?
Where have all our Unions gone?
Has the federal government ever done anything even approaching the scale of change needed to address Climate Change?
What's happened to our infrastructure?
Where has our freedom gone? Has it taken peace with it when it left?

We've already lost everything that could be said for the United States being good, setting aside any claims of greatness entirely, and have lost almost everything that would qualify it as decent. The politicians have realized they can get the votes of some of the people who want change by branding themselves incrementalists and then putting indefinitely many increments between what we have now and meaningful change.

Contrast with history. When has incrementalism ever worked for us? We got the New Deal from one President who knew how to lead. He didn't give us a 1/2*Xth measure of making the American economy work for the workers. No, he got as much as possible then died wanting to do more.

[–] K1nsey6@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Democrats assumed that those small little *incremental *steps that the party wanted them to take was going to lead to more progressive left leaning country. Turned out those small, unnoticeable, little baby steps marched to the right. The fact that the party has gone from people like Jimmy Carter to the likes of people that deny Holocaust is evidence that incrementalism marches to the right

[–] Halasham@dormi.zone 2 points 5 days ago

Yeah, the sadistic ratchet-effect of American politics. D Party moves nanometers in the right direction, R Party moves kilometers in the wrong direction, D Party moves nanometers from the new center, repeat until... well this shite.

[–] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I won't disagree with really any of that, and I'm not completely against the idea of total revolution, but revolution requires people.

In November, 30% of people didn't bother to vote at all, and another third voted for fascism.

How bad will it have to get before people care?

How much worse than THAT, will it take to get MAGA to realize they fucked up?

At that point you might have enough people to actually do something, but also the restrictions on freedom will have gotten stronger, and there will be strong measures in place to prevent dissent.

It may be inevitable, but I don't want to live in that country. And if I can hold it off long enough that my children don't have to live in it, maybe they can turn things around. I see a lot of potential in these kids. They can do a lot of good once the Boomers die off.

Let's slow the bleeding as much as possible before going straight to amputation.

[–] Halasham@dormi.zone 2 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

I appreciate that you've got some hope for our rotted out system. I don't. The only hope for the future I see is a present in flames.

That being said, while I don't think there's any hope of reform the point I was making was that incrementalism has brought us tRump while bold action, not even revolution, almost a century ago staved off fascism for this long. If I'm mistaken and reform is possible I find it wholly inconceivable that it would be brought by the incrementalists, rather it would come by some stroke of luck that someone like Sanders... probably a bit harsher than him would attain high office and force positive change like FDR did.

I don't think anyone wants the conditions of a revolution or the immediate aftermath thereof but it is a question of how bad would that be in the short-term verses how bad will it be in perpetuity, barring revolution at some later date. As is I couldn't morally justify bringing kids into this apocalyptic hellscape.

The people of Vietnam rebelled against their French overlords with effectively nothing but their chains to begin with and then fought off a superpower to keep their independence. The people of Cuba deposed a fascist tyrant from similar destitution. It's not easy but it's entirely possible no matter how totalitarian the state is.

[–] K1nsey6@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Don't leave out the part where that force positive change that was created **under **FDR was actually forced positive change that was created by his socialist Secretary of Labor, Francis Perkins. When left to act on his own FDR did things like lock Japanese people up.

As usual, it was socialists that created the change needed for the working class

[–] Halasham@dormi.zone 2 points 5 days ago

I agree entirely. It's impressive the act of deception that produced a nation so anti-socialist while looking at it's own history it's been the socialist who've done the most for the people.

[–] blazeknave@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Yeah... I liked his God stuff. I thought it made the party more relatable. Have any Dem presidents not mentioned being Christian ever?

[–] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 3 points 5 days ago

I don't think so. They'd be too afraid of being labeled a heretic. The most common position seems to be "I'm religious, but not THAT religious."

[–] forrgott@lemm.ee 33 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Dude, this been going for decades. But it's all Biden's fault, of course! How did I not see that?

Trump is responsible for his own actions. Not Biden. Not the Dems. Trump. But keep crying, it'll change reality! For you, at least...

[–] ieatpwns@lemmy.world 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Wrong everyone knows time started in 2021 when Joe Biden got sworn in

[–] Critical_Thinker@lemm.ee 1 points 5 days ago

In the beginning there was biden?

[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 9 points 5 days ago

If you don't look religious, you won't get elected.

[–] acutfjg@feddit.nl 2 points 6 days ago

Is it Cherry season?

[–] K1nsey6@lemmy.world -5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Democrats always pave the way for regressive legislation. The cops that are about to be weaponized to assist with ICE were militarized by Biden and cop cities. Democrat ratchet effect keeps helping shift the entire country to the right. Instead of fighting the systems of exploitation and oppression, liberals will only fight the manufactured villains without challenging the entire system. Trump is the manifestation of 50 years of refusing to hold politicians accountable

[–] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 3 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

You better go fix it then.

[–] K1nsey6@lemmy.world -4 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I did my part by refusing to support the right wing duopoly

[–] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago (1 children)

That statement right there implies that you are probably one of the 30% of Americans that could have stopped Trump just by voting for the next best feasible option.

Don't get me wrong, that was me the first time he ran, I was similarly disillusioned when I felt like Hillary cheated Bernie. So, those first four years. Those were on me.

I hope you enjoy all the "progress" these next four bring, because those are on YOU.

[+] K1nsey6@lemmy.world -6 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

And you would be 100% wrong. Trump is 100% the fault of people that would never hold their own politicians accountable. They allowed them and their entire party to keep shifting further to the right by accepting small doses of 'lesser evil' an evil that grew so large they were not able to contain it any longer. They thought that the proper route to go was incrementalism which resulted in small little baby steps to the right. The entire party has shifted from people like Jimmy Carter to people that deny that there's genocide going on in Gaza.

One of the biggest faults of liberals is that they only fight the symptoms of the corrupted system. They refused to challenge the system itself because they benefit so much from it.

[–] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 4 points 5 days ago (1 children)

And until you actually get that revolution started, sitting around and talking about it while blaming EVERYONE ELSE, is just as helpful as the people watching Fox News every day.

Again, I get it. And I support your revolution, but until you're ready and willing to actually start it, you should support mine.

[–] K1nsey6@lemmy.world 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

Liberals do not have a revolution, complacency and conformity to the status quo is not revolution. Realizing that Democrats are not our allies is the beginning of that revolution

And continuing to repeat the same failures year after year after year is not a very compelling argument to support you

[–] Jarix@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

You could have voted for Harris, and convinced other people that it didn't matter how bad she was, because the other option, and there were ONLY 2 choices lets not kid ourselves, is trump and thats worse in ALL possible ways

You could have done everything to stop Trump, and also still start your revolution under Harris. Nothing stopping you from voting for the objectively better choice while continuing to figure out how to construct the world you believe in. The enemy of your worst enemy IS a better choice than the worst choice

[–] K1nsey6@lemmy.world -2 points 5 days ago

And you could have voted for Stein or Claudia Del la Cruz, In first past the post, the one with the most votes wins and dems could have helped make that happen. We've tried the Democrat way for generations and things just keep getting worse. And for Democrats, it's always been do it my way this time and then we can do it your way next time. The problem is that I've been hearing that for 50 years and next time never comes because the Democrat leadership will always give you a boogeyman to fear, something to vote against.

[–] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Like I said, it's all just big talk until you fucking DO SOMETHING. Talk to me when you get started.

[–] K1nsey6@lemmy.world -3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

That's a cute assumption to believe that I am doing nothing. I've been doing something for years, part of that doing nothing is getting people to realize Democrats want the exact same end game as Republicans and none of it is for the benefit of the working class. They serve the donor class, the 1%, at our expense. If I was actually doing nothing as you claim we wouldn't be in this discussion, but discussions like this make liberals like yourself uncomfortable so they lash out. Liberals don't like leftists because we make them feel like bad people. That's why they try so hard to morally lash out at us whenever they can. They understand that many of the policies they advocate are unethical but can't oppose a system they benefit from so they tear us down.

So not only are leftists fighting the system, we also have to fight Democrats that are constantly punching left when they should be punching up. But Democrats will breathe their final breath defending the status quo, defending the systems of exploitation and oppression.

[–] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

And I wish you the best of luck, let me know when you've successfully talked the world into being a better place. I'll be the first to thank you. Hell, check in every now and then with progress updates, and I'll cheer you on. But, since you haven't said otherwise, I'm guessing you wasted your opportunity to prevent Trump from taking office. So, I'll just see how YOUR plan works out for us.

[–] K1nsey6@lemmy.world -3 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Your plan was to put in someone that denied Gaza is experiencing a genocide, that locked trans in women up in men's prisons, arrested black women for their students being tardy, embraced war criminals, blew Republican dog whistles like using the word Patriot and gun usage, has never won a single electoral vote in her life. Was pulling at the same level as Biden who polled at one of the lowest levels ever for a president.

We saw how the Democrat plan worked out for all of us in 2020, and we all got fucked. Democrats fucked up in 2016. Gave us Trump Democrats fucked up in 2024. Gave us Trump.

[–] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Sounds like you're happy with the situation that you, and others like you have put us in. Like I said, hope it works out. Thanks for nothing.

[–] K1nsey6@lemmy.world -2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Democrats put us in this situation in not leftists. Democrats decided that genocide was not a red line, that militarizing police to be used against its own citizens was a red line, The failing to protect marginalized communities while using them as political pawns was not a red line. Liberals are their own worst enemy and they point fingers at other people to blame them for their own inability to govern.

[–] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

Cool. Let me know when it's fixed. Or if you have a plan. That's a good start.

[–] Jarix@lemmy.world 0 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Have you seen the executive orders alone that YOUR choice of trump has caused? THIS is better than "denieing that there is a genocide in gaza" ?

Holy wow dudez thats just wow.

You empowered the acceleration of something you hated simply being denied and not supported

This is what 2025 looks like.

We DO live interesting times

[–] K1nsey6@lemmy.world 0 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Sometimes things just have to be burnt down to be rebuilt. Liberals love talking about accelerationism while denying the fact that their incrementalism has turned their party into right winged reactionaries. Your party has gone from people Like Jimmy Carter to people that are denying a Holocaust while chumming up with other war criminals.

How's that incrementalism working out for you?

[–] Jarix@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

First I'm not American so neither are my party. Second at his inauguration he had the richest man in the world so the nazi heil. Twice

If that's not a fucking problem for you then you are b loody hopeless as you are now

[–] K1nsey6@lemmy.world -1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

It may as well be your party, you're supporting them. Like I'm sure you are supporting their equivalent in your country. Fascism is incapable of gaining a stronghold in politics without the help of a complicit liberal party.

[–] Jarix@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago

That's incredible