this post was submitted on 22 Feb 2025
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Fuck Cars

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[–] jhulten@infosec.pub 8 points 4 hours ago (2 children)

This is Jackson Park golf course, owned by Seattle Parks and Rec. It is one of the cheapest ways to play the game in all of Seattle.

It opened May 12, 1930. That's before the Interstate and the light rail.

There are plenty of places to shit on golf courses. This one is probably a miss. Without mixed use space, this area has been a heavy car use zone with low walkability. The section from the freeway north of the park is also a steep hill, reducing the accessibility of the area.

Additionally, the plans provided do not meet the requirements for development. Specifically, how are you going to get a fire truck to the six story buildings in the middle. Is there enough space for.emergeny services to maneuver and to keep a fire from jumping buildings.

Talk and MS Paint is cheap. Good urban planning in not.

[–] GaMEChld@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago

Reminds me of AtomEve's situation in Invincible. Everyone think they are an architect till shit isn't engineered correctly.

[–] zeppo@lemmy.world 0 points 1 hour ago

Okay, so put a road or two through the middle for emergency access. The walk ability part is supposed to be solved by the light rail they mentioned.

Michael Moore in one of his books suggested we repurpose golf courses into public housing. They tend to be in better school systems to begin with so there’s an added bonus.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (2 children)

There isn’t any context on where this is, but:

  • there aren’t enough golf courses to really impact housing supply
  • parks and recreational facilities also serve a societal good assuming they’re accessible and serve the community as a whole
  • golf courses aren’t usually located along transit
[–] YarHarSuperstar@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago

1 and 3 are not good reasons not to try something like this. 2 feels like bad faith because this isn't either of those things, it's a golf course. Less than a quarter of golf courses in the US are freely open to the public, and a quarter of them are members only. That's thousands of golf courses that are taking up space/land and water and returning next to nothing of value to the community or the environment, or worse than nothing in many cases.

Source for numbers: https://mygolfspy.com/news-opinion/study-percentage-of-public-vs-private-courses-in-the-us/

There are enough to reduce housing supply issues.

Private golf courses provide little to no benefit to anyone especially after we factor in the environmental costs.

Golf courses not being on pubic transit is the only part I agree with.

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 10 points 15 hours ago (3 children)

Golf courses aren't inherently bad, but I think just about every one out there is weirdly exclusive and definitely wastes water.

Disc golf is a good example of a sport that doesn't monopolize space. It's built into existing trails. Generally speaking the public can't walk on golf cart trails (I'm sure there are exceptions)

[–] underwire212@lemm.ee 5 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (1 children)

I do. It is a giant waste of fucking space and resources so that some rich people can enjoy hitting a ball around.

[–] zeppo@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago

The worst part is usually they take an undeveloped scenic natural space and turn it into a waste of water that pollutes from all the lawn chemicals.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 9 points 8 hours ago

There are city-owned golf course around me that I presume aren't that exclusive (I dunno, I don't play). That said, they're also implicated in draining all sorts of toxins into the local waterways.

I think they are inherently bad. They waste water, their turf needs constant care that puts nasty stuff into the rest of the water supply, and the space can't be used for anything else. It's not merely a game, either; it's the defacto way for rich people to network and talk about how they're fucking the rest of us.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 6 points 7 hours ago (2 children)

Disc golf is just sticking a few goals into otherwise typical park. You are gently tossing a soft disc over maybe 60-90 meters so you don't need to be extra careful to make the way clear.

Golf by its nature demands huge amounts of space for few people to enjoy. Further the landscaping and irrigation demands on a golf course are immense. You can't have too many things on a course or people walking around, because a pretty hard ball comes flying from 200 meters away.

[–] Nikelui@lemmy.world 4 points 5 hours ago

Minigolf is the superior and family-friendly alternative to golf, TBH.

[–] Roopappy@lemmy.world 3 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Correction: The discs are not soft. They are hard and can be sharp-edged as well. Keeping throws away from walking and bike paths is super critical.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago

Ok, guess I may not have exposure to the scene as much. My experience is probably more 'filthy casual' level, at a few parks and a corporate campus that seems to just have goals installed without much regard for where the trails are, and the few times I've participated it was just random folks with pretty mundane frisbees.

[–] eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Same weirdos who defend the horrid use of land will say "Fuck off we're full" to immigrants trying to not die from wars and ethnic cleansing.

[–] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 4 points 4 hours ago

The US is very sparsely populated overall. Of course cities are densely populated, but that's because they're cities.

[–] Etterra@discuss.online 2 points 13 hours ago

Just as soon as somebody buys the LA and and develops it into affordable homes. Because I'm sure as hell never gonna be rich enough to fix a stupid golf course into something useful.

[–] buzz86us@lemmy.world 2 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (1 children)

I wish we'd just do non luxury apartment high rises with underground parking in HCOL areas. Then there is room for green spaces, and more people can be accommodated.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Parking is always expensive, and even more so for underground. The counter argument is that you can build much cheaper without, so the units can be more affordable.

I don’t entirely buy that, since developers could already choose less high end finishing for more affordable units and they usually don’t.

Also, “less parking” is not the same as “no parking” and that hinges on their being useful transit or walkability. I know that’s one of the points of a district like this, but this is why you do need to think big, so that an individual developer can make the choice

See also “transit oriented development”. Boston is one of the cities that has been pursuing that idea. Recently it was extended into the suburbs with new higher density zoning being a requirement for every community served by the regional transit authority

[–] buzz86us@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

All that goes up are luxury units that nobody can afford and it is usually the same stick built BS that is inefficient in use of space and adds more tarmac

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

Sure, but zoning has some effect - developers will build to maximize their profit within what is allowed by zoning.

  • if zoning allows multiple units, they maximize profits by building as many as they can
  • if zoning requires less parking, they may maximize profits by replacing some parking space with more units (assuming sufficient transit to allow them to sell)
  • if zoning creates areas of higher density, a town center type of area can create a synergy that draws more people, more profit.
  • while not everyone wants to live in a town center or a large building, more housing supply can drive down prices for everyone: supply and demand

I’m not claiming zoning is sufficient nor does it act quickly but it can be a tool for improving livability, setting the conditions for developers to profit more by building what the town benefits from.

Currently zoning is mostly a weapon enforcing the status quo, but it doesn’t have to be

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