Ask Lemmy

I'm not a psychologist or whatever to say how long but the dad should get as much leave as the mother does to help deal with all the new baby shit and bond with the child.

You should take all the time you can get. Fuck other people's expectations.

I don't think you're missing anything. I think that your co-workers bragging is one of the toxic effects of how we tend to think about productivity nowadays, especially in America. I think that there's a tendency to glorify suffering (i.e. sacrificing time with your family to do so much work that by the time you get home to your family, you're too exhausted to be fully present with them).

I know fathers who effectively didn't have a choice about spending time with their newborns, because of a mixture of social pressures (especially gendered pressure from extended family) and financial pressure (such as not having access to paternity leave), who then go on to brag about how much they worked and sacrificed, framing it as if it's a choice they're glad they made. I think that for some people, this nonsense rhetoric is what they tell themselves to cope with the fact they were effectively coerced into something they regret.

Long story short, you're not missing anything. You are, in some ways though, going against the grain: even in places that have paid paternity leave, that alone isn't enough to change the tide of social attitudes. That change happens because of people like you who go "fuck this nonsense, I'm not making a martyr of myself to support my family when I can do a much better job supporting them if I'm there with them".

Unfortunately, based on reports from friends who are fathers, this is just scratching the surface of people being weird about men who are enthusiastic and engaged fathers. It sounds like you've got your priorities in order though. Your coworkers are very silly, and even if you don't feel it appropriate or necessary to tell them how absurd they are, you should at least internalise the fact that you are the sensible one here. An analogy that comes to mind is how, if your employer matches your 401k contributions, it's a no-brainer to take advantage of what is basically free money. If someone has "spare" salary and asked for financial advice online, one of the first and most basic suggestions is often that if you're not already taking advantage of any 401k match your employer offers, you definitely should be. It's free money! Similarly, taking advantage of the paid paternity leave is a no-brainer. This isn't a challenge run in a video-game, so there aren't any prizes for making things needlessly harder for oneself.

Edit: Also, I bloody hate it when people say shit like this:

"Most men are hard working and want to support their families so they don't take leave".

The subtext they're saying here is "I don't acknowledge parenting (and other caring labour) as being hard work, and I certainly don't acknowledge how critical essential this labour is for the world to function. I assume that this work is primarily for women, because this allows me to ignore it and the people who do it, which allows me to feel more important. The only way I can maintain my self identity as 'hardworking' is if I implicitly demean others' hard work".

It's bullshit, and your instincts are right to flag this shit as weird. Parenting is bloody difficult, and anyone who makes comments like this are actively reinforcing old systems that led to many fathers not being given the opportunity to be active fathers.

Anyway, rant finished. I'll finish this edit with something I forgot to say in my main comment: congratulations, and good luck in the weeks to come. And well done on taking this paternity leave, because that helps to disrupt the existing, outdated systems of traditional family structure that make everyone miserable. The impact of one person's choice is only small, but if enough people opt for their family over slaving over the altar of capitalism, I hope that we can build a world where a father wanting to actively be a father is treated like the normal thing it is.

Absolutely take paternity. Why wouldn't you?

Both parents should be entitled to take 12 months leave as a minimum, and their employer should be required to pay their salary and protect their position during that time.

Life at home would have to be pretty bad for me to rather be at work.

Ignore them. If you can, should you try and stagger the time off with your s/o. Don't take it at the same time.

When my daughter was born, I was blown away to find that my company offered 16 weeks paternity leave. A couple of weeks before my wife was due, I was talking to a coworker and found that his wife was also pregnant, but he didn't know about our company's parental leave policy. He had only been planning to take a couple of weeks. After we talked I found out he took the whole thing.

That four months was one of the greatest times of my life, getting to know my newborn daughter.

Three years later I was in a different job when my son was born. They offered three days. Six months later I found a new job, and I took an extra month off during the transition, just so I could spend every day with my son.

I don't regret any of that. I can't even imagine what that would feel like. I love my children and love being a dad. This is life. This is all we get.

People always bitch about fathers being too busy for their kids and shit but as soon as a father wants to be there they're all like "ew what the fuck is wrong with him"

@neomachino,

You will never get the time back to be with your offspring during these formative months into years. I would scoff at any "scoffers" and tell them their bragging about not taking time off to be with their family isn't the flex they think it is. Life is more than just your occupation. I'm an American living in the Netherlands with my Dutch wife these days, and I can guarantee with certainty my European colleagues would scoff at me if I didn't take the time off. Attitudes towards this are changing in the U.S., albeit too slowly in my opinion, but our culture is fundamentally sick. I primarily blame puritanical christian zealotry that made its pact with the devil (pun fully intended) with avaricious capital for much of the woes found in our society, for what its worth. The gods willing, this will die out in a few generations.

Take the time and cherish it; your future self and children will thank you.

Good for you! That time with your family is really important.

I'm from the US and I caused quite a stir when I took 4 weeks off; 3 days paternity leave and the rest was accrued vacation. HR was trying to convince me to break it up because "it would set a bad precedent." But my boss was supportive and approved it anyway.

Most democratic countries have a full 12 months leave or more for whichever parent ( or shared between both.) Maybe this lack of early bonding and co-regulation between family members explains US as it is today.

Fuuuuck that. There's a reason it's offered. You get once in your life to see your newborns like that. Fuck your coworkers, take the time.

And this is coming from someone who is child free and really doesn't enjoy kids personally. Take the time, be with your family. Jobs come and go but your family is who matters. Start talking the other way. "I want to make sure I absorb this while I can, I can't imagine missing these moments" and "this will only happen once or twice in my life, how could I miss that?".

I've just lost someone in my team for 4 months due to paternity leave. As far as I'm aware on full pay too.

I'm happy he gets to take it, you guys in the US have it rough with workers rights. I'd say take the maximum you can and enjoy the time, we're not put on this earth to generate profit.

Be the change you want to see and make sure you brag to everyone about how great it is when you get back, maybe they'll start to think differently.

I'm pretty sure there is enough research that supports the idea of paternity leave increasing parental involvement and connection with your child and leading to more gender equality/more balanced responsibilities in families.

My husband and I went the very conservative route with him being off for 2 months and me being off for 3 years (German classic). Let me tell you I would have not survived the newborn stage, having no help from outside, without him. At the same time, for him it was so hard - although I am not sure that work was easier, he after all still came home to a little baby. Parental leave doesn't mean you get to chill, it means you have no excuse for not doing half of the night shift, half of everything except breast feeding. When he went back to work, he would do the night shifts on the weekends, and I would do all the night shifts on workdays.

Your co-workers are morons. They miss out on helping their baby mamas, connecting with their kids, and going through a unique experience. Even if your pay was much lower, it's worth it. It's hard and stressful and awful and it is the best thing you'll ever do.

My manager is on paternaty leave for half a year, it is normal here, he is a dad after all!

It's a psychological defense, "I did this and it was ok and it's the right thing to do, so everyone must do it too". It's like backwards logic, like, I think it's s good idea simply because I was forced to do it and that's the only way it makes the whole thing ok.

Also related: toxic culture of "toughen up".

The brain works in quirky ways. There's real studies that show that if something is higher price people attribute better characteristics to it.

You are experiencing gender based persecution. Think of men who can't be a stay at home dad, work as a nurse, or can't show emotion, etc. Women who want to do construction work or STEM. LGBT and especially trans discrimination is also that taken to an extreme because the perceived gender divergence is more drastic. For whatever reason, there are many people in society who want to enforce strict artificial gender roles on other people.

almost bragging how little time they took after their kids were born

I had a coworker bragging about lying to his wife that he couldn't take time off. This is fucked up on so many levels: why even have a kid? Why do you lie to your wife? Why are you telling people you barey know (I had been there for like two weeks) that you lie to your wife? WTF?

I feel like I’m missing something.

Maybe they're insecure? They don't know what to do with the new kid, and instead of figuring it out together with their partner they run back to the things they know and hide behind a fake martyrdom. I wonder how many of them will in a few months or years say that women are "naturals" when it comes to taking care of kids.

Congrats on the kid and on being an actual dad!

Your coworkers desperately need class consciousness, working until your bones give out is not "supporting your family" its being a wage slave.

heard stuff like “Most men are hard working and want to support their families so they don’t take leave”

Very cringe and capitalist boot-licking mindset

Let me introduce you to a new concept: 躺平

Chinese people are actually so based and is already resisting their State-Capitalist CCP tyranny

We should learn a thing or two

😎

To me it was a no brainer, I’m getting ~85% of my normal pay

You get paid?

OF COURSE FUCKING TAKE IT. I'd even take it unpaid, GETTING PAID IS LIKE A CHERRY ON TOP. TAKE IT 😎

I bet you're an awesome husband and dad. If you can afford it, it's absolutely a no brainer.

Am American. Would take every day of it. Would come back and laugh at them when they picked on me for it, while calling them idiots for not taking advantage of the opportunity. "Have fun talking yourselves out of regret, losers."

I heard that early childhood (first weeks, months, maybe years) are vital for development of emotional intelligence. Neglect could lead to life-long struggles. So I'm happy to hear you favor the idea to stay and care. Good for you, you both, and all of us.

I was so mad that I only had 1 week of PTO to take care of my wife and son after the rough birth. Thankfully some friends pulled us into their place to help take care of my wife while I had to work, otherwise she would have had to get grippy socks....

I fucking hate this country.

That is an absolute no-brainer. Pay aside, take care of family.

That's the whole purpose of the pay anyhow, money is just an odd totem that we allow to take care of our families.

Plus, you get to hang out with the little one for 3 months! Your wife loves you even better. It's wins all the way down.

It sounds like your fellow wagies have been conditioned to shun anything that smells even a little "socialist". Paternity leave not only smells like communism, but also wokeism by daring to suggest that the man of the house should maybe share the responsibility of taking care of their baby.

You are bravely doing the radical feminist work of daring to care for your wife who is likely going to have trouble with either holding her bladder (if she squeezed your new family member out through her pelvis) or with standing up and holding your baby (if she got a c-section). How do you feel knowing most of your coworkers wouldn't do this for their wife?

Oregon has this and it was amazing to take 12 weeks of paternity. We can also split it up, so I did part time for like 30 weeks. Kept us from needing to find childcare until she was almost 1.

Fuck your coworkers opinions. Even the 12 weeks I got is nothing compared to my Norwegian coworkers.

Fuck those people dude. When it comes to children. The days are long, but the years are short. Enjoy the time you have with them when they are little and don't miss out on all those amazing moments. I took 12 weeks with my kid and it was wonderful to just watch her grow. Take benefits where you can, fuck the haters.

Those guys are going to be “blindsided” by divorce because they’re such “nice guys”….all of the other dudes they constantly spend all of their time trying to impress tell them so

this is part of your compensation. you pay state taxes for it. And you deserve it. decades of corporate propaganda has made most people believe they don't deserve leave at all. ignore the haters and take your leave.

Honestly, fuck those coworkers. What I will tell you is this: They're only newborns for so long, and after that they're only babies for so long. Those are some of the most precious moments in life. Giving that up to wage slave for a company that at the end of the day doesn't give a shit about you? When given the opportunity to experience something that will probably only happen once or twice in your lifetime? You should 100 percent go for it. The other option is looking back on how you missed out on something you will never get back. I missed out on one kids baby phase pulling 60 hour weeks. Was lucky enough to be around for my second and was able to take paternity leave. Best decision I was given, and hate myself for missing out on my first kid.

I had 12 months of paternity leave, 11 paid. I dig it.

Those people are jealous fucking idiots. 12 weeks is hardly anything. You get a fucking year for each parent in Norway

We took the first 10 months together and then I took an additional 8 months while she got back to work.

Literally zero regret. There's so many small moments you'll miss not being around. No amount of money can bring that back. Now that I'm working full time, it fucking hurts just seeing the kid basically just for dinner and bedtime during the week.

I support paternity leave and would like to see it normalized.

Holy shit, 12 weeks ! I'm from France and paternity leave is notoriously lacking (compared to other forms of welfare that exist alongside it). I feel 12 weeks is generous and fantastic.

My Colorado Comrades in corporate environments take the time. I've seen a number of guys go out on Paternity since we enacted paid paternity leave in our state. It's legally protected, we fought and voted for it. If your boss doesn't like it they can eat shit and die because it's your right. Your family is more important than some corporate nonsense.

First of all dont tell your coworkers shit. It almost always becomes ammo for them later.

Definitely take advantage of every state program you can. You paid for it already. People talkin shit are fuckin smoothbrained trogs

Paternity leave saved my life when I was a young father with an ill wife. Take as much time as you can.

Also, side note, the year I took off of work to care for them when my sons were small (3 and 5) I look back on as one of the best decisions I ever made. Despite the fact we were flirting with homelessness, the bonding and memories made a huge impact on them, and now that they're adults, we have an amazing relationship that far surpasses the distant bond I have with my own father.

I am not a parent but I think paternity leave is essential. Your wife is doing to need a lot of help and it's just as important for you to bond with your baby as her.

I feel like I’m missing something.

No, they are lol. Wth is wrong with them?

Lol, here in Norway 2 months ish paternity leave is mandatory

The mom guys back to work for that period, leaving you alone with the kid, but if they breastfeed you kinda have to stop by the office once a day for snacks...

I did that for 6 months, which is pretty much the max. I enjoyed the hell out of it, you connect way more to your kid honestly.

I got 100% of my pay. (Government gets you to a certain level, and then most companies covers the rest)

You must be American...