this post was submitted on 03 Apr 2025
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Lefty Memes

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An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.

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Hitler's strategic program for Greater Germany was based on the belief in the power of Lebensraum, especially when pursued by a racially superior society.[9] People deemed to be part of non-Aryan races, within the territory of Lebensraum expansion, were subjected to expulsion or destruction.[9] The eugenics of Lebensraum assumed it to be the right of the German Aryan master race (Herrenvolk) to remove the indigenous people in the name of their own living space. They took inspiration for this concept from outside Germany.[9] Hitler and Nazi officials took a particular interest in manifest destiny, and attempted to replicate it in occupied Europe.[11] Nazi Germany also supported other Axis Powers' expansionist ideologies such as Fascist Italy's spazio vitale and Imperial Japan's hakkō ichiu.[12]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

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[–] ephrin@sh.itjust.works 32 points 1 day ago

[–] ocean@lemmy.selfhostcat.com 21 points 1 day ago

Thank you so much for sharing this! One I have never learned this before and never understand the eastern front. Two, many Americans still view manifest destiny as a positive American culture. This really sheds light on how it’s not.

[–] surph_ninja@lemmy.world 1 points 18 hours ago

The Nazis are still killing the Slavs in the East, and the US is arming their attempt at genocide.

[–] lurch@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Lebensraum is just a German word for "habitat" or "environment". That's why this narrative will always raise a lot of German eyebrows.

Also, Germany had colonies in Africa, too. AFAIK they predate the nazis. Expansion and imperialism was a thing at the time.

[–] AlligatorBlizzard@sh.itjust.works 13 points 1 day ago

They had a colonial genocide in Africa before the Nazis. The Herero and Nama genocide.

[–] RedSnt@feddit.dk 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Whenever I can, I like to point to the Bellamy salute as being the inspiration for the Nazi salute.

[–] lemonskate@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Your link does not support your claim

Later, during the 1920s and 1930s, Italian fascists and Nazi Germans adopted a salute which was very similar, which originated with the so-called Roman salute, a gesture falsely attributed to ancient Rome.

Do you know of any other accounts that would support the Bellamy salute as being the inspiration for the Nazi salute, apart from looking similar?

[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Hitler both idolized and drew inspiration from America, but in respect to the salutes, he was aware of them on both Italy and America. I don't think there's any evidence about which one inspired the Nazi salute exactly, I think it leans towards Italy but doesn't really matter all things considered.

[–] lemonskate@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

That's my understanding as well, with some "Roman" origin claimed, possibly as propaganda given how the Nazi party liked connecting themselves to ancient Rome as some kind of claim to legitimacy.

I'd love to be able to add the Bellamy salute inspiration bit in when I do have this conversation with folks, but I'd need a better source before I do.

[–] RedSnt@feddit.dk 1 points 20 hours ago

Apologies, it was the last thing I posted before going to bed, I should've verified it instead of relying on memory. What they have in common is the same gesture, which wasn't even a real roman salute.

[–] fossilesque@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I think you misread that, in context it circles back to the American one. For more context see here under origins. The American version was very much in the timeline with the inspiration: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_salute

Also worth reading: https://web.archive.org/web/20240719151050/https://www.workingclassicists.com/post/the-antiquity-to-alt-right-pipeline

The Nazi's love of America and Rome plus the whole America being based on a lot of Roman stuff (Look at your money motifs... Columns on Lincoln Memorial, White House, etc.), is a whole... thing. People forget the Rome idolization too, but it goes hand in hand with the American stuff.

https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691172422/hitlers-american-model

[–] lemonskate@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Zero argument on the larger point of Hitler's idolization of America (the worst bits), quite familiar with it already. Hitler also admired Jim Crow laws and wrote about them specifically.

My point is that I've never encountered a reliable source to the specific claim that the Nazi salute took inspiration from the Bellamy salute, rather than being coincidentally similar. The wiki page linked even purports the origin of the Nazi salute to be the "Roman salute", albeit itself based on bad history.

It's a point I'd love to be able to make when having this same argument with folks, but I'm not going to tell people that the Nazi salute was based on the Bellamy salute without a better source than a Wikipedia article that claims otherwise.

[–] fossilesque@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Sorry, I was not clear. I was trying to say that they're a package deal; you must look at them within the contexts of each other. Both cultures are hitting the same notes based on their propensity for similar historical revisionism at similar times and the relationship is kinda nuanced. I found something more eloquent than my 2am brain.

The main reason for such lack of accuracy is that a thorough analy- sis of the history of the raised-arm salute requires a synthesis of vari- ous areas of knowledge that scholars usually keep separate: the history, literature, and art of ancient rome; the cultural and political history of modern italy, Germany, and the United States; the history of late- eighteenth-century european painting and late-nineteenth-century popular theater; and film history from its beginnings to today. For this reason no comprehensive scholarship on the raised-arm salute has previously been attempted.

Pp 4

With the rise of Nazi Germany, some Americans identified the flag salute itself as problematic. This dissertation refers to the salute popularized by the Youth’s Companion, in which children began the Pledge with their right hand over their heart before extending their hand upward toward the flag, palm up, at the phrase “to my flag,” as the Bellamy salute to be consistent with earlier historiography, although recent research suggests it predated Francis Bellamy, its namesake.467 The Nazi salute differed from the Bellamy salute only in that the arm began outstretched and the palm faced down. The Bellamy salute was most likely based on the mythologized “Roman salute,” which also inspired Italian and German fascist salutes in the twentieth century.468 Although the Bellamy salute predated the Nazi salute and was incorporated into the Flag Code in 1923, Americans in the 1930s and early 1940s were forced to consider whether the traditional rituals of the Pledge of Allegiance should change as a hyper-nationalistic foreign regime seemed intent on overthrowing the democratic governments of the world.46

Pp 157 - https://dlib.bc.edu/islandora/object/bc-ir:109587/datastream/PDF/view

This is what I was trying to get at with the pipeline link.

Also you must consider the rise of media during this time: https://kb.osu.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/0c516d4f-431c-551b-820c-2bfed6ec9b4b/content

History rhymes. I unironically think about the Roman Empire a lot because it's a dog whistle. To say one inspired the other isn't wrong when you take a step back, it's just oversimplified.

[–] HorseRabbit@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 1 day ago

Playing dolly