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submitted 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) by TiffyBelle@feddit.uk to c/linux@lemmy.ml

Been down the rabbit hole lately of UEFI Secure Boot issues, and decided to write an overview of how it works out-of-the-box in the excellent Debian-based Linux Mint LMDE 6.

Have mostly been researching this stuff as I was looking to replace GRUB entirely with systemd-boot on one of my systems. Will likely write a follow-up piece documenting that journey if I think it'd be interesting to some nerds out there.

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[-] tony@lemmy.hoyle.me.uk 19 points 11 months ago

If you want to experiment with UEFI you don't need systemd-boot either, just create an efi bootable kernel and direct boot it. reFind is still around I think too for graphical boot (although that's mainly used by macs.. apple users like guis :p).

[-] TiffyBelle@feddit.uk 12 points 11 months ago

Booting the kernel directly via EFIStub from the firmware is certainly an interesting idea, although it sounds like a potential pain to manage updates. Will definitely take a look down that rabbit hole though. =)

[-] TunaCowboy@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

At this point it's pretty well battle tested.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/EFISTUB

[-] cbarrick@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

I've been working on a tool to make management of EFI boot entries easier, specifically with the use case of booting Linux in mind.

https://github.com/cbarrick/efiboot

I haven't made a public release yet though... I really should.

[-] interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

rEFInd is finally a reasonable boot loader. It and ventoy might finally make dual boot Linux + windows viable

[-] ClemaX@lemm.ee 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Isn't Ventoy used to boot images like ISOs?

[-] Laser@feddit.de 15 points 11 months ago

First, I'd personally always opt for systemd-boot instead of GRUB when I have the choice. GRUB is just very complex and systemd-boot rather simple.

Getting Secure Boot to work isn't always trivial, especially since mainboards and TPMs don't always document how enrolling your own keys works.

[-] drwho@beehaw.org 2 points 11 months ago

Hard same. systemd-boot is about as tricky as, say, syslinux (which I used to use) to get working, which is itself far simpler to work with than GRUB ever was.

[-] saltedpenguin@artemis.camp 1 points 11 months ago

personally for me, grub beaks when sdax changes but, in systemd boot doesn't. this is my main reason to prefer it. easy access to boot configuration is a plus i guess.

[-] MonkderZweite@feddit.ch -1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

GRUB is just very complex and systemd-boot rather simple.

Well, except the Systemd part. Efistub or Refind it is for me.

[-] Laser@feddit.de 6 points 11 months ago

systemd-boot is basically gummiboot with an interface to systemd so that the latter can get information on boot time in firmware and stuff. I prefer a boot loader instead of Efistub because it allows easier configuration of boot options etc. but it just comes down to personal preference

[-] Presi300@lemmy.world 13 points 11 months ago

How to use secure boot in linux:

Step 1. Go to the UEFI settings and disable it

Done

[-] MonkderZweite@feddit.ch 9 points 11 months ago

Wait, Mint switched base from Ubuntu to Debian?

[-] trainden@lemmy.blahaj.zone 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

'Normal' Mint is still based on Ubuntu, but there is LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition), which is Debian based.

[-] ReakDuck@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 months ago

Thats awesome

[-] JakenVeina@lemm.ee 9 points 11 months ago

Fun read.

So, is the implication here that ONLY Microsoft keys can be in the db, and thus they're the ultimate authority on who gets signed? Does Microsoft somehow own the UEFI standard?

Relatedly, can anyone elaborate on their reason for refusing to sign GRUB? I'm not following just from that short quote.

[-] TiffyBelle@feddit.uk 16 points 11 months ago

Microsoft doesn't own the standard. It's actually an open standard maintained and contributed to by a whole host of technology companies. This is contrary to the old BIOS method which was originally proprietary to IBM.

The fact they have such wide authority in signing is a product of how wide-reaching their market share it. They essentially mandate that OEMs include their signing keys in the signature database if their systems are to ship with Windows, thus making them a de facto authority on what gets signed. This was a point that made a lot of people in the FOSS community uncomfortable and still does to this day, although if one wants they can actually take full control of the Secure Boot process by replacing the Platform Key (PK) with their own. This gives ultimate control to the owner of the machine as they can then replace the Key Exchange Keys to allow them to replace Microsoft's keys within the signature database (db). This completely removes reliance on any third party signatures and enables ditching the first-stage Shim bootloader from the boot flow entirely, since the owner could just sign whichever bootloader they wanted to use directly with their own key in the database. As it would require manually signing everything from the bootloader to the kernel and its modules though, including re-signing them after updates, this is definitely a much more involved way of doing things although arguably even more secure as the system would be entirely locked down to only binaries signed by its owner at that point.

As to why they don't sign GRUB, it's about licensing. Since GRUB is GPLv3, there are provisions in the license that Microsoft interprets as potentially mandating them to disclose their private key to facilitate users installing modified versions of it. Ubuntu came to the same conclusion when contemplating how to deal with Secure Boot back in the day, where they wanted to provide an alternative to the Microsoft keys by having Canonical's keys also shipped with firmware, although proliferation of their keys is a lot less widespread and in some peoples' eyes not all that much different than just using VeriSign's service for the Microsoft keys anyway.

[-] interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml 6 points 11 months ago

What is the point of secure boot, if secure boot will boot a shim bootloader which will then boot whatever else you want?

[-] devfuuu@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

All the marketing and hype.

[-] ClemaX@lemm.ee 1 points 11 months ago

I think the shim bootloader as well as the booted software must perform some verifications too.

[-] semperverus@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

You can put your own keys in on many motherboards using some of the command line EFI tools, but you would have to basically recompile everything from scratch using your keys to get them to run. I.e. might as well switch to gentoo at that point.

On the other hand, Microsoft's keys are a common target and if the distro is partners with MS, they can have their packages signed with the MS keys. This is technically less secure as the key is widely shared and if it gets cracked somehow, anyone using it is compromised. But it's a "good enough" solution for many who care to use secureboot at all.

Personally I just turn it off, and I haven't experienced any attacks on my machines over the last decade that would take advantage of something that low level. Then again, I'm very careful with what I download and who I open emails from, etc.

[-] AProfessional@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

You just have to sign everything, not compile. But huge pain.

[-] henfredemars@infosec.pub 5 points 11 months ago

Perhaps I missed it when skimming the article, but why were you looking to replace GRUB?

In case it was in the article, it might be worth adding that information up here.

[-] TiffyBelle@feddit.uk 17 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Good question! There's a few reasons, I guess:

  • There's a large element of "because I can" to this, just to explore how stupid the scope of systemd is as a suite.
  • There's a small practical element. GRUB itself is quite a hefty tool to accommodate all kinds of boot setups, and it works well. If you have a simple boot setup though you could probably shave a couple of seconds off of the boot time just by using the simplified sd-boot and loading the kernel via its EFIStub.
  • A learning exercise in self-signing EFI binaries, enrolling a MOK (if I use Shim), and setting up scripts to handle updates.

All boils down to my enjoyment of doing weird nerdy things though, ultimately. =)

[-] henfredemars@infosec.pub -1 points 11 months ago

In the interest of politeness I reserved my initial reaction of absolute horror that this would even be attempted by systemd.

[-] yum13241@lemm.ee 1 points 11 months ago

sysd boot doesn't just sign itself.

[-] terminhell@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 11 months ago

Interesting. I guess this could be a method to allow actual full disk encryption? Unless there's a way to have grub encrypted too?

[-] Laser@feddit.de 8 points 11 months ago

What do you mean by that? TPM and Secure boot do not manage encryption, but rather authentication and key management aspects. You still need an unencrypted UEFI partition storing your EFI binaries. This partition is always readable by an attacker, however any changes to binaries will make booting fail. Also no secrets should be stored here.

[-] skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

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[-] Frederic@beehaw.org 2 points 11 months ago

here's also an interesting read on linux secure boot, using MX21 https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=67022

[-] jungleben@infosec.pub 2 points 11 months ago

If distros signed the bootloaders with their own keys, then I would configure my system to only use those keys and not include Microsoft’s.

[-] Pantherina@feddit.de 2 points 11 months ago

Short: UEFI is Microsoft crap, only Heads Coreboot is a really secure system

[-] witx@lemmy.sdf.org 0 points 11 months ago

The EFI binary is signed by a private key, whose public key signature is present in the trusted Signature Database (db).

Shouldn't it be the opposite? i.e signed by a public key?

[-] Hugin@lemmy.world 10 points 11 months ago

Nope. You sign with the private key and verify with the public key. Basically you use the private key to do stuff only you should be able to do and the public key is used by the public to verify it was you who did it.

this post was submitted on 13 Oct 2023
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