I voted for the Greens in Germany, celebrated the first center-left government since my childhood, and now they're tightening the thumbscrews on immigrants and subsidizing energy for large corporations.
this post was submitted on 10 Nov 2023
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You must be very young and/or naive, if you had lived through the Schröder/Fischer governments (or had informed yourself about them) you'd have known that neither the SPD nor the Greens are in any way left leaning.
or in case of the SPD you just had to look at most of the Merkel governments
That, too, but if you point at those, people will argue that the SPD couldn't be more social due to being caught as the smaller partner in a coalition with the CDU.
If you really want to point out the full scale of antisocial policy done by SPD and Greens, you have to point at the governments Schröder/Fischer, because for those, there is no CDU fig leaf to hide behind. And there is plenty to find there, a few highlights for those who don't want to be bothered with looking it up:
- "liberalisation" of the labour market (allowing temporary employment schemes that spawned an entire, previously illegal low wages sector and reduced the influence of unions)
- "reforms" of the social security system with severe cutbacks to unemployment benefits, forcing lots of people into the newly created low wage sector. On top of that, subsidies to the low wage sector through the employment office (if your employer doesn't pay you enough to make a living, you can't quit your job without losing access to benefits, but you're allowed to claim extra money from the employment office)
- "reforms" of the pension system, which reduced the pension levels, increased the pension age, and introduced subsidies to private pension schemes provided by insurance companies, which by now all have been identified as scams where you pay way more than you get out.
- "liberalisation" of the financial sector, which made previously illegal hedge funds legal, which then promptly created a bunch of financial and subsequent economic crises with their unhinged speculation.
God. I hate Tony Blair’s influence on Schröder back then. Pretty much everything you wrote came originally from Blair…
That's no coincidence. Schröder modeled his transformation of the SPD into a neoliberal centrist party after Blair's "New Labour".
neither the SPD nor the Greens are in any way left leaning
Sad but true.
How the fuck is the green party not left leaning? What kind of no true scotsman shit is this?
They're just a pro gas party no?
You're in the wrong countries democratic system buddy...
To be fair here... They are as left as their third coalition partner allows. And that's entirely the fault of voters, who -even with the CDU underperforming and proposing a literal clown as chancellor- couldn't mananage to vote in a not-right majority. So why complain about not enough left policies now?
I won't vote left and then I complain about missing left policies and decide to vote even more right isn't a sane thought pattern but just a symptom of brain damage.
They are as left as their third coalition partner allows.
Then, in order to know how left leaning SPD and Greens are when no coalition partner is holding them back, you only need to look at the governments of Schröder/Fischer, as I already pointed out here.
Giving up on all parties based on 25 year old information is a bit pessimistic.
What do you mean by giving up? No one is giving up.
But Trollercoaster just stated facts, no matter if you like it or not.
If there was any indication that they have changed in a meaningful way, it might be possible to look at them differently. Just there really isn't. The fact that they willingly entered a coalition with the FDP is enough to know everything about them, because the FDP is very well known for doing exactly what they are doing right now: Redistribution of wealth from the bottom to the top, no matter the cost.
Going back even further in history gives more data points, especially on the SPD, which has a long tradition of coining itself as a working class party, while repeatedly selling out the working class. This pattern dates back all the way to WW1, where the SPD was very quick to expel anyone who dared to speak up against the war. After WW1, in the early years of the Weimar Republic, they cooperated with far right paramilitaries in order to "convince" striking workers to end their strikes using the very compelling argument that is firing live ammunition at them with machine guns and whatnot.
The Greens are too new to have any long standing history of being such a textbook working class party, but the few data points that exist make them look just as good. The Prime Minister of the German state of Baden Württemberg, a Green, had a little "let them eat cake" moment last year, when he advised poor people to get through the energy crisis by simply using a wash cloth instead of taking a hot shower, while boasting how he made himself less reliant on expensive fossil fuel by upgrading his own house with insulation, solar panels, and a pellet heater. In some other states, the Greens are (or have been) in a coalition with the CDU, which is also very telling.
It's obvious bullshit to use a quarter of a century old reference... Who's actually left from back then nearly a generation later?
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/192255/umfrage/durchschnittsalter-in-den-parteien/
Of course an AVERAGE age of 60 in the SPD shows how less is left from 25 years ago.
No, most of the people in leading positions back then having quit the party, quit politics or having stepped down and only working in the backrows ~15 years ago (and some being dead) is what shows it...
"tightening", by reducing requirements for getting the German passport?
Anti-immigration positions: 5 minutes to explain.
Pro-immigration positions: 45 minutes to explain.
Population of the world: Fucking huge.
Not sure how to solve this one.
Something something representative democracy, where politicians have a duty to deal with the complexities, in order to actually represent the peoples interests and not just the populist ones.
How do you do that when everything has to be in short slogans or people will have forgotten it by the time you are done talking?
Inalienable human rights. Bam, 2 seconds.
Thing is, those who are against immigration are much more motivated. This is generally how politics goes, that a motivated minority can eventually get their way against a less-interested majority. As great as it is, that was largely what happened in the other direction with issues such as gay marriage.
For those who are anti-immigration this is often the only topic they care about, or they care much more about this than anything else. On the other hand, those who are pro-immigration are largely either mildly-favorable towards it or they care much more about other issues.
Personally I think that left-leaning parties in Europe basically have two options currently:
-Fight against anti-immigration stances and then lose power.
-Focus on other topics while getting tougher on immigration.
It might not be the smartest move to be anti-immigration, but unfortunately in a democracy feelings are usually more important than facts and one of the biggest issues with the left is not being able to accept that.----
but am want move to europe ._.
You’ve nailed speaking with an implied subject, so the Slavic countries could be a good fit.
because funny
Huh, now an implied verb too. Maybe split your time between Poland and Spain.
[._.]
Whoops, now pre-verbal. Albania awaits!
Fear is both easy to manipulate and an extremely powerful tool.
Calling it an immigration debate is a symptom itself, right? We're usually not talking about people coming here to study and to work, which would be immigration. Instead the debate is about asylum for refugees, whether refugees get individual human rights or if they can be treated in bulk with imposed limits, where they can be sent and who has to deal with them, who builds walls, whether they can be drowned in the mediterranean or if it's legitimate to shoot them at the borders, whether activists who rescue them from drowning are criminals.
Stop framing it as immigration, which is a bit in each country's purview to organize or not, and can indeed be debated. Here we're talking about human rights for human beings who are in a desperate situation and deserve every help they need and if we can't grant them that then we have failed our shared values, and our economic system and our political system are apparently unsuited for humanity and should be abolished. Refugees are welcome or you are an asshole and there cannot be any discussion about this, at all, in a modern democracy with human rights.
I kinda wanna live in Europe though, because my country sucks. Now I'm gonna get hate from everyone.
And if you absolutely hate me and hate this statement, there's this downvote button that you can press. I feel like getting shamed today.