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I'm joking with the meme, but it's an interesting how plot armor unintentionally places value on people's lives in fiction.

It's telling that censorship laws decide who it is and isn't acceptable to kill. Just thinking about violence against sentient robots and how that's normalized in things like Samurai Jack.

Like we know the robot has thoughts and feelings, like they'll try to run to save themselves or plead for mercy, but a character can still heroic after essentially killing a non-human who's acting like how we understand humans.

I feel like there's something dangerous in how easily we can depict appropriate targets of violence. Not just robots, but anybody deemed as less than human are allowed to be more put at risk.

us-foreign-policy

Unnamed people are killed in superhero fights all the time. But unless they are of a class of characters like protagonists, they are collateral damage at best.

I think Plot Armor as a trope needs more class consciousness and awareness around how deciding who gets to be protected is often an unconscious political belief.

What about you though? Any tropes in media you'd like to see explored more or written with a leftist understanding?

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[-] robot_dog_with_gun@hexbear.net 47 points 11 months ago

i'm pretty much done with any story about restoring the "correct" monarchy. be a bunch of communes with a defense pact or something like damn

[-] Dolores@hexbear.net 12 points 11 months ago

where is my fantasy fiction about creating leagues of city-states to oppose The Empire?

or communi organizing to secure rights against their feudal suzerains?

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[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 34 points 11 months ago

One of the most ruinously widespread propaganda messages is "changing society somewhat is hard and the people that try may have a point but go too far therefore trust in the status quo warriors to set things as good as they can be."

It's in capeshit of course, but it's also pretty much everywhere else, including P R E S T I G E T V trash, showing anyone that isn't a cynical murderfucker as a fool, or worse.

[-] CombatLiberalism@hexbear.net 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

This one is my number one pet peeve when it comes to capeshit stuff. It's either A: the villains have a point but they're just oh so evil that it doesn't matter anyway (marvel did this at least twice, it's in The Batman and it still bugged me but I do think they pulled it off in a way that I was ok with) or B: the hero(es) are actually villains (the boys, invincible)

Might be kinda specific, but just once I'd like to see a superhero story where the "villains" are actually 100% right and aren't cartoonishly evil AND the "Hero" is the one who has to come around to their side, going against the status quo in the process. Just once I want "the villains are the good guys" to be played straight.

[-] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 33 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I don't ever need to read another story where the protagonist is seemingly of humble origins but is secretly a VERY SPECIAL person, perhaps even the one FORETOLD BY PROPHECY

If it wasn't a compelling basis for a story, it wouldn't be used so much. But after the first thousand stories like that it's enough already

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 12 points 11 months ago

It'd be neat for a humble origins character to survive and endure with the help of friends and a little luck. Maybe not as superficially "special" for it, but grounded enough where their survival and success might actually be compelling to read about.

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[-] American_Badass@hexbear.net 30 points 11 months ago

I hate seeing things like, "the royal court: words are sharper than daggers here and you must be more alert than on any battlefield." I like political intrigue, so I get it. But I'm 90% certain most aristocracy was people with seven toes on each foot from decades of inbreeding going to court to decide which son was going to marry their 13 year old first cousin.

I'd like to see it subverted from a left wing perspective.

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 20 points 11 months ago

I hate seeing things like, "the royal court: words are sharper than daggers here and you must be more alert than on any battlefield."

I'd like to see it subverted from a left wing perspective.

Basically a fantasy wine cave with fantasy wine liberals congratulating themselves for performative smartness.

[-] cryptymythy@hexbear.net 15 points 11 months ago

oooohh fantasy VEEP

[-] Crowtee_Robot@hexbear.net 24 points 11 months ago

Just stay the hell away from time travel. It can be neat and thought provoking when done with enough thought put into it as a central conceit, but more often it's just a narrative ass-pull that causes more problems than it solves.

[-] D61@hexbear.net 7 points 11 months ago

The exception that proves this rule, when its done in a comedy. The series Red Dwarf has a few episodes where time travel or time running backwards or a time portal are used and its funny. I think the movie James vs Himself has got some funny parts too.

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[-] iridaniotter@hexbear.net 23 points 11 months ago

Basing a fantasy culture off of a real-life culture. Or even worse, basing a fantasy race off of a real-life culture - that's just dehumanization. It's very common, it's very problematic, and it's a remnant of racist 20th century fantasy. The Forgotten Realms has to be destroyed, sorry. Genshin Impact as well.

If you're going to be using a real-life culture, you need to seriously know your stuff and have respect for the culture you're writing about (this is why Liyue is good and Sumeru is racist trash, for instance). I'd say to most people that if you want to use someone else's culture cause it's cool, consider worldbuilding something unique instead and save us all a headache.

[-] FourteenEyes@hexbear.net 28 points 11 months ago

What's really problematic is when they just have race wars in there, as a thing, and it's not examined at all. For all the things BG3 does well, it treats the goblins as completely disposable even within the narrative itself. There's deep gnome characters who live on the surface in Baldur's Gate, but every single goblin is a football hooligan that eats people and can't read. All they're good for is being slaughtered by the PC or slaughtering all the Tieflings at the grove.

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 17 points 11 months ago

but every single goblin is a football hooligan that eats people and can't read. All they're good for is being slaughtered by the PC or slaughtering all the Tieflings at the grove.

Before I knew what The Absolute was, the goblin woman in the cage had my sympathy and I sincerely wanted to find out what she was talking about and set her free because leaving her in there to be inevitably killed just seemed pointlessly cruel.

I'm not saying The Absolute had to be some wholesome goblin leftist revolutionary front that would overthrow the rich assholes of Waterdeep or something, but the single note "these are ugly bad people that do bad things" messaging was really, really lazy.

Pathfinder goblins have a lot more nuance even while still being generally unruly and seen in an ungenerous light.

[-] Goblinmancer@hexbear.net 11 points 11 months ago

Wild that BG3 literally removed alignments and still made 99.9% of golbins evil

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 12 points 11 months ago

The game was generally good but the setting presented still has some pretty sus takes and messaging.

I never run "official" campaign settings and never have because I've always found Forgotten Realms pretty sus and sort of designed around some shitty old ideology with a lot of inertia and status quo maintenance mechanisms built right in.

I've even moved on to Pathfinder for that reason. Fuck WOTC and its every few years attempts to force worse licensing agreements on everyone else.

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[-] Dolores@hexbear.net 9 points 11 months ago

What's really problematic is when they just have race wars in there

yeah, like making a completely new culture that's unrecognizable from it's inspirations is fucking hard, i'm sympathetic to taking liberties and making a country 'magic italians' or something. but your fantasy cultures should never be doing a fucking race war unless its industrialized, colonial and the story is all about examining that.

medieval and ancient people didn't do race war, they didn't have the ideological bases to even imagine it

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[-] muddi@hexbear.net 14 points 11 months ago

Tolkien's thing exploring the extremes of humanity as different races was cool. Except there was way too much overlap with real world races that invalidates it for me.

The former is what humans have been doing in mythology since the beginning of civilization. The latter is modern mythology, basically nationalism and fascism in the worst case. There is a reason that neo-Nazis use the term "orc" for people they consider inferior

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[-] muddi@hexbear.net 22 points 11 months ago

There are two classes of tropes for me: the ones which serve as actual building blocks of worldbuilding and storytelling, and the ones which are cultural biases.

The former are just the usual patterns retold throughout history, like the hero's journey. They can seem boring, but it's because they are generic and need to be localized to the fictional world or a culture's mythology. Arguably, the way we identify these involves bias, eg. the hero's journey is mostly based on Indo-European mythology. But I hope my point can still be made.

The latter category are the tropes informed by biases. Or to put it another way, when you can create any possible world or write whatever story, why is it just medieval Anglo shit over and over? Ever notice how most fantasy maps are left-justified? Even hard worldbuilders who do all that meteorological calculation shit can't perceive a linguistic reality beyond the European sprachbund.

It's like learning the etymology of a word. Sometimes you find out the way we use words today is very weird, and we shouldn't assume it applies across all time and traditions ("man" used to be gender neutral, for example). Except some core words eg. "to be," "to go," "to come" are relatively very stable.

[-] mathemachristian@hexbear.net 21 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Omg I thought I was the one going crazy telling people of the implicit racism in LotR or other fantasy works!

I mean "horde" comes from the Turkish word "ordu" meaning army and was used to describe the ottoman ordu/horde. Is it then a coincidence that the orcish horde are often depicted wielding scimitars and the elves straightswords?

Why is mordor placed in the exact position as anatolia on the map? Rectangular in shape with near insurmountable geological features as its borders???

edit: I just took a look at the map for the first time in years and omg, minas morgul (once a gondor city) is so clearly gallipoli/troy coded, the black gates guarding the "main entrance" (who fell to mordor because of a plague in gondor) for Istanbul, the misty mountains the alps and the shire being obviously england doesn't even need to be mentioned

[-] ProfessorOwl_PhD@hexbear.net 18 points 11 months ago

The geography is specifically based on earth's, because it's meant to be set in the distant past of our irl earth when there was still magic.

[-] 420blazeit69@hexbear.net 8 points 11 months ago
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[-] muddi@hexbear.net 12 points 11 months ago

The sword thing really gets me but I am usually quiet and self-conscious that it sounds like whining.

I really like swords, all swords! But growing up, I was taught that straight swords are the good and elegant ones, while all other designs are for evil henchmen who die immediately. The exception being the katana because weebs caught onto it as a glorified exoticized object.

In general, it confused me how knight, samurai, and ninjas become categories in themselves, but no other historical warrior figure gets to have the same.

[-] star_wraith@hexbear.net 21 points 11 months ago

Period pieces from the 1940s-1960s USA made decades later where amongst a group of white people, only one of them is actually racist and the rest are fairly enlightened (see The Help, for one example). If you were a white American in 1955 and you weren’t a commie, there is a high likelihood you were hella racist. Michael Moore told the story on Chapo where they announced that MLK had been shot at his all-white church and the whole congregation started fucking cheering and celebrating. Most white people back then were very racist and this trope really whitewashes it.

That said, I really like the DS9 episode Far Beyond the Stars for this reason. Shimmerman is the only white character that is explicitly not racist but he’s also implied to be a leftist if not a commie. The others are either a bit racist or at best indifferent to Avery Brooks’ racial struggles. The cops beat him up, too. Pretty accurate. And maybe this was a throwaway line, but I love how Sisko doesn’t want to go to the 1960s Vegas holodeck program because, as he explains, that time and place wasn’t great for black folks. Don’t know if that was the intention of the writers but it’s kinda true, all the white characters are just loving Vic Fontaine and who atmosphere, completely oblivious to the broader society going on around them.

[-] ChaosMaterialist@hexbear.net 21 points 11 months ago

I'm tired of The Fall. I get it, everything was great until ~~the Fire Nation attacked~~ ~~Melkor can't hold a tune~~ ~~somebody ate some fruit from a tree you put there you dunce~~ a terrible thing happened and now we're trying to regain our ~~mojo~~ ~~life essence~~ ~~kidnapped princess~~ D E S T I N Y. Similarly, I'm tired of Precursors in science fiction. Cool, you found some ruins from ~~Space Romans~~ an ancient civilization! such wow, what old, so mystery, smol feels.

Both cases would do well to get Historically Materialist.

[-] CrushKillDestroySwag@hexbear.net 18 points 11 months ago

Series idea: scientists find ruins of an alien civilization, but all of the most enduring ruins are Bronze Age mega structures made from stone. All of the technology that they had is scraps that have been blasted away by thousands of years of decay and the scientists have to make guesses based on ice core samples of when they started their industrial revolution and how far along they got and why the whole thing collapsed.

[-] ChaosMaterialist@hexbear.net 23 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

This would be an excellent space horror as they increasingly question why their species/civilization made it past whatever event they are trying to study.

geordi-yes We found some space relics!

geordi-no Why are they space relics?

[-] CrushKillDestroySwag@hexbear.net 12 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

In the last episode, the leading scientist sums up everything they've discovered: "At first we thought it was an asteroid impact, then we thought it was nuclear war, but now we're pretty sure they cooked themselves with greenhouse gasses and their space colony failed once the resupply missions stopped getting sent."

[-] FourteenEyes@hexbear.net 7 points 11 months ago

Then it turns out the aliens were humanity all along

[-] oktherebuddy@hexbear.net 9 points 11 months ago

this is mass effect pretty much

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[-] D61@hexbear.net 8 points 11 months ago

The Reality Dysfunction book series has a "dead" alien civilization

spoilers below

spoilerthat committed mass suicide to keep their dead from demon possessing the living and taking over the universe.

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[-] SpiderFarmer@hexbear.net 17 points 11 months ago

Honestly, classist elements in plot armor isn't out of pocket. That was my experience reading the Gods of Blood and Powder trilogy (the sequel trilogy to the Powder Mage books). I love McClellan's books, but there were a lot of moments of henchmen being casually slaughtered and it's just like, "plot demands we keep chugging."

[-] Quexotic@hexbear.net 15 points 11 months ago

I'm just thinking about you what you said about the superheroes. It would be very interesting and make for much more no bite multifaceted characters if they had to deal with the deaths of Innocent bystanders and mourn them or be punished for them accordingly.

Marvel does this a little bit with the snap but I would love to see it more.

[-] RyanGosling@hexbear.net 15 points 11 months ago

Unnamed people are killed in superhero fights all the time. But unless they are of a class of characters like protagonists, they are collateral damage at best.

I think Plot Armor as a trope needs more class consciousness and awareness around how deciding who gets to be protected is often an unconscious political belief.

They attempted this in The Boys but it ended up being a liberal CIA jerk off

[-] mathemachristian@hexbear.net 10 points 11 months ago

The boys was (? I hope) such a liberal jerkoff torture porn masquerading as systemic critic I couldnt bear more than the first 2-3 episodes before turning it off and that was not because of the CGI violence

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Yeah, its "Prestige TV" approach (and the sheer edginess of the source material) made its "most superheroes as a concept are basically fascist supersoldier fantasies come to life" messaging fall increasingly flat especially as if couldn't help Prestige TVing itself into status quo "improving this situation somewhat is impossible" staleness.

[-] mathemachristian@hexbear.net 7 points 11 months ago

Ooh a new term thanks

[-] plinky@hexbear.net 14 points 11 months ago

That lots of urban fantasy goes by "private investigator and/or cop" as a window into fantastical society. I understand that it is very convenient for exporation and exposition, but like cmon invent something new. Incidentally, lots of time cop/investigator runs into not enough power levels, cya.

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 16 points 11 months ago
[-] plinky@hexbear.net 10 points 11 months ago

That as well lol, but that more like a half-sibling. Urban fantasy is from noir father and fantasy mother, disco from noir father and eastern european literature

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 17 points 11 months ago

de-electrochemistry Give him enough drugs and he'll be your fantasy hero.

[-] HarryLime@hexbear.net 12 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

It's telling that censorship laws decide who it is and isn't acceptable to kill. Just thinking about violence against sentient robots and how that's normalized in things like Samurai Jack.

Like we know the robot has thoughts and feelings, like they'll try to run to save themselves or plead for mercy, but a character can still heroic after essentially killing a non-human who's acting like how we understand humans.

I feel like I should point out that he does kill humans in season 5, and the show more or less says that not only is he still cool and heroic for doing it, he's actually even more awesome now that it can be shown with blood and everything.

[-] Magician@hexbear.net 13 points 11 months ago

Yeah that's wild from a creative perspective. The morals didn't change, the censorship level did because it was on adult swim.

And even then there was still this level of acceptable violence when you're not considered human enough.

They were considered evil enough to kill even if they were born human and made evil against the will.

[-] HarryLime@hexbear.net 21 points 11 months ago

Yeah that's wild from a creative perspective. The morals didn't change, the censorship level did because it was on adult swim.

I mean, I think that was completely the correct decision, artistically. Samurai Jack was openly influenced by chanbara movies and samurai anime and manga, and particularly by Lone Wolf and Cub. The samurai characters in those stories are cool and heroic precisely because they kill people in stylish and gruesome ways. Shying away from that or rejecting it would have been hypocritical weak. I also think "cinematic violence is incredibly cool and our hero is incredibly cool for killing people in cool ways" is FAR less problematic than "it's cool to kill robots because they're not 'real' people, even when we show them as fully sentient, but killing humans is a big no no."

[-] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

"Secret cabal controlling the world from behind the shadows" traffics in anti-Semitism. The trope doesn't predate The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It validates the fascist idea of an enemy being both weak and strong. If the cabal actually control the world, they obviously don't need to hide behind the shadows.

[-] Dolores@hexbear.net 22 points 11 months ago

The trope doesn't predate The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

yes it does, the illuminati & freemasons are from the 18th century

now modern interpretations of it definitely have interwoven secret society tropes with antisemitic ones. and the original panics about masons and illuminati were kind of colored with antisemitic tropes thonk it's all kind of a mess so i guess i'm saying you're broadly correct just too late in your chronology

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[-] D61@hexbear.net 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Super villian bad guys could program the protagonist to do bad things but couldn't figure out how to get the protagonist to off themself after doing the villian's dirty work... which winds up with the villian(s) getting thwarted by the protagonist... (Lookin at you Bioshock)

Honorable mention... Everybody who matters knows what the control words are but weren't smart enough to say something like, "Would you kindly, stop breathing", and instead hands you a golf club and says, "Would you kindly, beat me to death".

Bonus one... (its got to have been mentioned by now)... Nobody ever learns anything from the last crisis. I really got into The Expanse, but holy fishe did the constant repeat of "nobody learning from the things that happened last week" start to get exhausting.

[-] FourteenEyes@hexbear.net 8 points 11 months ago

Andrew Ryan ordering you to beat him to death was his way of dying with dignity, of choosing his manner of death and robbing you of choice in the same moment.

In other words, he was a fucking idiot. You can also uncover this fact by learning that he is an Objectivist.

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