347

Me vs my ISP (lemmy.dbzer0.com)

submitted 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) by theblueredditrefugee@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com

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So I was looking into getting port forwarding set up and I realized just how closed-off the internet has gotten since the early days. It's concerning. It used to be you would buy your own router and connect it to the internet, and that router would control port-forwarding and what-have-you.

Now, your ISP provides your router, which runs their firmware, which (in my case) doesn't even have the option to enable port forwarding.

It gets worse - because ISPs are choosing NATs over IPv6, so even if you install a custom firmware on your router without it getting blacklisted by your ISP, you still can't expose your server to the internet because the NAT refuses to forward traffic your way. They even devise special NAT schemes like symmetric NAT to thwart hole punching.

Basically this all means that I have to purchase my web hosting separately. Or relay all the traffic through an unnecessary third party, introducing a point of failure.

It's frustrating.

I like to control my stuff. I don't like to depend on other people or be in a position where I have to trust someone not to fuck with my shit. Like, if the only thing outside my apartment that mattered to my website was a DNS record, I'd be really happy with that.

Edit: TIL ISPs in the US don't have NATs

Edit 2: OMG so much advice. My knowledge about computers is SO clearly outdated, I have a lot of things to read up on.

Edit 3: There's definitely a CGNAT involved since the WAN ip in the router config is not the same as the one I get when I use a website that echos my IP address. Far as I can tell ~~my devices don't get unique IPv6 addresses either~~. (funnily enough, if I check my IP address on my phone using roaming data, there's no IPv6 address at all). It's a router/modem combo, at least I think since there's only one device in my apartment (maybe there's a modem managing the whole complex or something?). And it doesn't have a bridge mode, except for OTT. Might try plugging my own router into it, but it feels like a waste of time and money from what I'm seeing. Probably best to just host services over a VPN or smth.

Edit 4: Devices do get unique IPv6 addresses, but it's moot since I can't do anything but ping them. I guess it wouldn't be port forwarding but something else that I would have to do that my router doesn't support

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[-] Rognaut@lemmy.world 161 points 10 months ago

In the US and I use my own personal modem and router. Renting their equipment is optional.

[-] NateNate60@lemmy.world 40 points 10 months ago

Same here. I get $10 off for using my own router. That's $120 off per year. A cheap router bought from a supermarket cost me $60. It works fine, the signal quality is only okay but my flat's pretty small anyway. Getting your own router is just a financially sensible option.

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[-] TunaLobster@lemmy.world 16 points 10 months ago

Not really with ATT fiber anymore. The fiber goes straight into their router to authenticate. There is no option for me to purchase an equivalent piece of equipment. I am forced to pay to use their equipment. Fuck ATT.

[-] nevalem@programming.dev 19 points 10 months ago

You can totally bypass ATT Fiber now with your own SFP+ xgs-pon, fiber terminated to your device, without needing to exfil certs or do anything other than clone the identifying info of the att router's label depending on the technology they're using in your area.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UIAgtxkImgFRwyaGDGtISD0JXnxWNvuuNDrnRac6wGc/edit#heading=h.f8l0utlsram6

[-] Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 10 months ago

Love that random google docs link instead of something like a tech blog.
Only a pastebin link could make it better.

[-] nevalem@programming.dev 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I think the originator of it was on dslreports but I couldn't find the link on mobile. I'm sure if you can search on Google you could find a secondary source for some tech blog or medium about it if that makes you feel better. There's also a discord that covers most xgs-pon bypass methods that I could share too. They keep turning it to private at times for whatever reason.

Other links and info of you are being serious and not passive aggressive. ATT is quick with DMCA takedowns so that's probably why the info can be fleetingly available at times but dslreports seems to be pretty reliable/resistant to them.

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r33665048-AT-T-Fiber-XGS-PON-SFP-Modules-for-AT-T-Fiber

https://hackaday.io/project/193110-bypassing-the-bgw-320-using-an-azores-cots-ont

https://forum.netgate.com/topic/99190/att-uverse-rg-bypass-0-2-btc/440

https://simeononsecurity.com/guides/bypassing-the-bgw320-att-fiber-modem-router/

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[-] PHLAK@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago

Yeah, as soon as I read the second paragraph my thought was "buy your own router". Problem solved.

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[-] slazer2au@lemmy.world 92 points 10 months ago

Yes CGNAT is used quite a lot, but consider 95% of customers don't care what their public address is and that "saves" the carrier address space.

We are the 5% that do care and if you call your ISP they likely have an option to exclude you from cgn and get an actual public IP.

[-] Rambomst@lemmy.world 39 points 10 months ago

This. I have been with multiple ISPs that use CGNAT and all had a solution to allow you to self host, just need to contact them.

[-] theblueredditrefugee@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 10 months ago

Yeah, it's looking like I have to make a phone call. Rough time, there's a language barrier

[-] kawa@reddeet.com 8 points 10 months ago

In France, with Free, you can get a real "full stack" IPv4 for free which is cool, I even cancelled my NO-IP subscription.

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[-] nutsack@lemmy.world 47 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

i repeatedly petitioned our landlord (once a year) to allow an alternative isp to hook up to the building, and he eventually was so pissed from my requests that he threatened to press charges against me personally if the electrical box were ever opened

[-] henfredemars@infosec.pub 44 points 10 months ago

Ouch. You know some landlords get kickbacks for exclusivity? It's pretty corrupt where I live.

[-] theblueredditrefugee@lemmy.dbzer0.com 24 points 10 months ago

My internet is included in rent. Which is convenient for day-to-day use but gives me less capacity for customization. Like, I admit it, the system works really well for normal people, I'm just a weirdo who likes tinkering with technology, hosting websites, and whatnot

[-] luthis@lemmy.nz 46 points 10 months ago

"My food is included in rent. Which is convenient for day-to-day eating but gives me less capacity for cooking my own meals. Like, I admit it, the system works really well for normal people, I’m just a weirdo who likes tinkering with recipes, hosting dinner parties, and whatnot"

There, I highlighted the absurdity even more for you. You're not a wierdo, you're a tech-chef.

[-] theblueredditrefugee@lemmy.dbzer0.com 21 points 10 months ago

lmao I like this.

Honestly I feel like people should have a better understanding of how their technology works. Like if we just all lived in a post-scarcity society where all code was available on github and any time a program stops working for you you can just go in, fork the repo, make the change that fixes your problem. Blammo, your problem is solved as soon as you can write the code, and if anyone else has the problem they can use your change.

One can dream

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[-] Outtatime@sh.itjust.works 12 points 10 months ago

I would have moved

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[-] heyitsmikey128@lemmy.world 47 points 10 months ago

What ISP do you have and what country are you in? I have Comcast in the US and do not have this issue even though they are a big and shitty ISP (I even use their modem, but I do have my own router which I HIGHLY suggest).

[-] ChuckEffingNorris@lemmy.ml 18 points 10 months ago

The older and shittier the ISP the more blocks of IPV4 addresses they have. They have blocks from when they were given out willy nilly.

New ISPs, the ones that compete and bring the prices down have to buy addresses and that costs money and is a cost bigger and older ISPs do not have.

This is a case for regulation - either mandating a move to V6 or mandating the release of stockpiled v4 addresses. ISPs will not do that on their own, the addresses can currently be sold for lots of money.

[-] redcalcium@lemmy.institute 17 points 10 months ago

The US and other western countries don't really feel the pressure of IPv4 scarcity yet. ISPs in other countries typically uses CGNAT or IPv6. Some even give you a routable IPv4 but may randomly replaced it with an ip behind their CGNAT when the lease is expired, giving you false sense of hope.

[-] NateNate60@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago

IPv4 address depletion isn't really the ISP's fault. It's a shitty solution to a shitty situation, to be sure, but it's either that or employing rationing strategies to stretch the remaining supply of IPv4 addresses.

[-] theblueredditrefugee@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 points 10 months ago

Or just use IPv6...

[-] Chreutz@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago

Many ISPs in Denmark actually charge you 30-40 DKK (4-7 USD) extra for the 'luxury' of IPv6, which is the same that they charge for publicly routable IPv4 (of course). I found that quite infuriating, so I searched around and found one that had public IPv4 and IPv6 included in the price. A little more expensive all in all, but I just hated the concept of IPv6 being an "extra" in 2023.

[-] theblueredditrefugee@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 10 months ago

Holy fuck, IPv6 is specifically designed to be non scarce and they have the gall to charge extra for it. Gross

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[-] mateomaui@reddthat.com 32 points 10 months ago

I bought my own cable modem and router for less than what my ISP would charge to rent them to me. They control nothing on my end.

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[-] Corgana@startrek.website 31 points 10 months ago

Apologies if you've answered this elsewhere but I'm assuming there's a reason you haven't bought your own router?

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[-] r00ty@kbin.life 23 points 10 months ago

And this is why I'm unlikely to change isp. I have a /29 ipv4 block and /48 ipv6 block. No extra charge. Grandfathered features from over a decade ago.

[-] theblueredditrefugee@lemmy.dbzer0.com 27 points 10 months ago

HOLY SHIT YOU HAVE A /29 IPV4 BLOCK???

That's like having a change jar with copper pennies or something, nice

[-] r00ty@kbin.life 11 points 10 months ago

Yep. The ISP doesn't offer it any more. They stopped, I think when RIPE officially "ran out" of new net blocks. But I've moved address twice so far and have kept the allocation. Well, on the last move they messed up and gave new a new single IP. I complained, and they asked why it matters so much to have my old IP. I pointed out I had a netblock, and they fixed it up pretty quickly.

Pretty soon, full fibre will be in my area and available on the same ISP. So, hoping for a smooth transition to keep it for a bit longer.

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[-] TCB13@lemmy.world 22 points 10 months ago

It gets worse - because ISPs are choosing NATs over IPv6,

Yes, because they're mostly pieces of shit, technically inept and unable to properly deploy IPv6 at a large scale.

Either way IPv6 doesn't fix everything as you'll still need a real IPv4 to access a large part of the internet or some translation (MAP-T/MAP-E). Even if your ISP provided dual stack with a real public IPv6 + CGNAT / MAP-T IPv4 it would still be annoying as you wouldn't be able to do port forwarding on the IPv4 and won't be able to access your self-hosted services from a LOT of networks that are IPv4 only.

There are two versions of MAP – translated (MAP-T) and encapsulated (MAP-E). In MAP-E IPv4 traffic is encapsulated into IPv6 using a v6 header before it is sent over the v6 network. At the network operator’s boundary router, the IPv6 header is then stripped, and the IPv4 traffic is forwarded to the v4 Internet. In MAP-T, the IPv4 packet header is mapped to the IPv6 header and back. The difference between the two options is evident in their names. MAP-E uses IPv6 to encapsulate and de-encapsulate IPv4 traffic, whereas MAP-T uses NAT64 to translate IPv4 to IPv6 and back.

[-] yamanii@lemmy.world 13 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Yep, the US reserved most of the ipv4 for them so they have no need for CGNAT, I had to change my ISP to host a terraria server for my friends because of it, but if you don't live in a big city you have no options.

I read that you can say to your ISP that you need port forwarding to use a remote camera system and they will make an exception for you, but I just switched since I even got a better speed deal.

[-] kaupas24@kbin.social 11 points 10 months ago

I had a fun little issue a while back where my isp replaced our fiber modem to one that didn't allow for port forwarding. The settings were missing but when I set up dmz host on that to allow our equipment to work again, I noticed it was behind some nat in their system. I found out I could call them to get functionality restored for a fee, but instead I plugged in the old box and still keep an external ip with port forwarding enabled and no nat. To be honest the old one has been a lot less stubborn as it doesn't drop every 10th packet on the network. I switched back about 6 months ago, and I've not had any issues, so we'll see when they call demanding me to plug in the new one. Their explanation for switching systems was that their old one wasn't powerful enough for gigabit speeds, even though both have interfaces for gigabit sfp. After some testing, the old one was more capable and stable at those speeds. I assume they wanted to switch systems due to some licensing thing, or to get more money from the .5% of people who care about these features.

[-] TheInsane42@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago

I'd advice to look into ipv6 tunnels and try to get that working. Abandon ipv4 when your isp refuses to ipv6.

[-] MomoTimeToDie@sh.itjust.works 7 points 10 months ago

You can't get your own router?

[-] Kbin_space_program@kbin.social 6 points 10 months ago

You can. But it then has to route through their modem+router single piece unit.

E.g. I have my own router which handles everything I need. But I switched ISPs recently to save 70$ per month, and the new company router has parts of its functionality, like turning off the wifi, built into their smartphone app and disabled in the admin panel.

Also the username and password for the unit is, by default, admin/admin. In 2023.

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[-] neatchee@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago

This is primarily geographic

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[-] DudeDudenson@lemmings.world 6 points 10 months ago

In my country we just buy a router and ask the ISP to set the modem/router in bridge mode

[-] gornius@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

If you're trying to self-host http service, you can use cloudflare tunnels.

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[-] misophist@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

In my country, the ISP rents you a modem and router. I told them I had my own modem and router during setup and my monthly cost is slightly less than their advertised price.

I am fortunate that my ISP gives me a routable address, but it is still only dynamic and may change a couple times a year. I would have to pay for a commercial plan if I want a static IP. Some other local ISPs use carrier grade NAT, but you can still request a publicly routable static IP with a business plan. Maybe you can ask your ISP for that?

[-] circuscritic@lemmy.ca 5 points 10 months ago

Standard IPv4 NAT or CGNAT?

Are you using their modem AND router? Or just their modem? If it's a modem router combo, can you place it in bridge/passthrough mode?

Even if it's CGNAT and no bridge mode, their are solutions available.

Are you looking to host private services like NextCloud? Or public services like a website?

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[-] bruhduh@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

Cheapest vps plus "sshuttle" may work, host everything on your home server but have dedicated ip of your vps

[-] WindowsEnjoyer@sh.itjust.works 5 points 10 months ago

First time hearing about sshuttle, thanks! What I did some time ago is to order small VPS in Linode, hosted wireguard server and let my router connect to it. Since connection is established - I've port-forwarded all ports (except 22) from VPS to my router via established wireguard connection.

Then all I have to do is to manage port forwarding on my router, but if I want to connect to my router from outside - I must use VPS IP.

Worked great, except the fact that I used to have mobile internet and as a rule of thumb - upload speed of mobile internet suck ass...

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