this post was submitted on 14 Feb 2024
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[–] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 127 points 9 months ago (18 children)

I took economics in my college days and this is a very stark example of people who are bad at economics.

Everything costs money. You can relate everything to a dollar amount in business. From labor, to time spent, to equipment and it's use, the cost of fuel for transportation etc. Knowing the full cost of selling an item including the time spent making it, the supplies used, the failure rate where you need to replace it at no cost to the customer, everything should be able to be factored in. From there you can set the cost of something, taking the overall price for all involved aspects of creating the thing, and adding some profit margin.

Spending a dollar to make a dime is adequate. If your economic costs are a dollar and you sell the thing for $1.10 then you make money. Sell enough and that's business.

With all that being said, the cost of transit fares should be set with the expectation that there will be unavoidable times where people will ride for free. Whether that's because of gate jumping, or other fare avoidance, or that someone simply entered into the system in an unexpected way that bypassed the fare system, or if it's simply that a fare was given out as courtesy, it's all baked into the fares that everyone pays.

The only time chasing down the people intentionally skipping their fare, makes any sense is if that amount of loss because of fare skipping is significantly above the expected losses from fare skipping. Googling it, the NYC transit system has a gross revenue around 5.8 billion dollars. Which means the amount of revenue to be gained by chasing down ~$100k in losses is around 0.0017%

If, the process of chasing down the fares costs over 1000% more than the fares are worth to do it, then the simple answer is: don't do it. That's basic economics.

In addition, they garner so much negative publicity in that process that they damage their reputation needlessly, which may lead to additional spending to improve their public image.

Finally, if you don't have more than 0.002% of your earnings set aside for losses like this, then you shouldn't be running the business. In reality, that number should be much, much higher than 0.002%.

To conclude: the whole thing is stupid from the outset. Tracking the losses makes sense, so you know what the figures are. Once you know the figures, crunching the numbers to see if pursuing action against the perpetrators is trivial, and should show a very clear picture of whether to take action or not.

In this case, no action was appropriate. Instead, they spent $150 million to get their public image ruined chasing after a bit more than $100k, and they will likely spend $100M more to try to repair their public image.

The losers in this situation? The people.

[–] PoliticalAgitator@lemmy.world 74 points 9 months ago (2 children)

They're not bad at economics, they're simply lying about what their goal was. That $150mil didn't just blip out of existence like in a video game, it ended up in people's pockets.

I would bet good money that many of those pockets belonged to friends and family members. Neoliberals have been using this tactic for decades as a way to turn public funds into private profits.

[–] einat2346@lemmy.today 27 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Or it just went into overtime for enforcers to sit around a train station watching a monitor.

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[–] brbposting@sh.itjust.works 16 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Something I read in discussions about San Francisco Bay Area transit which I did not see in your comment: perception of fare jumpers being responsible for an outsize proportion of antisocial behavior lead to commuters feeling unsafe.

For the record, I support UBI and like the sound of free transit.

[–] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 8 points 9 months ago

That's more of a social issue than anything.

It may be the case that those who are unable to pay fares, are also those that are likely to have no income or homeless or something. The "dregs" of society if you will.

I don't want to dive into this too deeply, because homelessness and poverty are another issue than what I was driving at, but it is something that we're not doing well with and it's something that needs to be addressed. I also support UBI and free transit would be nice but I don't think that's going to happen unless things change significantly. Even UBI is a long shot as is. Giving away services for free to everyone like transit access is basically anti-capitalist and a difficult thing to persuade others (especially conservative leaning individuals - specifically the capitalists) to agree to.

Regardless, there may be some association between the so-called "dregs" of society and criminal and antisocial behaviour. I understand drug addiction and how it starts well enough to know that people who are in -for all intents and purposes- "hopeless" situations, are at high risk of drug seeking behavior and looking to drugs to relieve their mental suffering. Of course this can lead to a whole slew of other issues, but it can be caused by social factors including unemployment, job loss, and homelessness. It can go the other way, that drugs lead to homelessness, job loss and unemployment (among other things), but that's neither here nor there. The fact is, antisocial, criminal and addict behaviors are often correlated to the poor, destitute, homeless, etc. Whether that correlation is accurate or not is up for debate, since it is difficult to keep any records for those that are displaced, nevermind records that are good enough to really say such correlations are fact. Nevertheless, the general viewpoint of the average person is that the homeless/drug addicted/criminals are going to more often be the ones doing bad things, such as dodging fares. Again, that may or may not be true, but it is the perception that matters in this case.

In the absence of any evidence, it is hard to say that the antisocial types are the majority of fare dodgers. The intent that I derived from the limited information provided by the op, was that they were seeking to end fare dodging. There was no other significant stated purpose for the investigation. In that context, pushing forward with the investigation, given the economics of the situation, the decision was ill conceived, and should have died in the meeting where it was proposed. If the intent was to "clean up" the transit from undesirables doing antisocial things like the example you posted, then that should have been clear in the statements of intent by the NYPD and NY transit authority folks.

I don't have the context for it to say that was one of their stated intents, as I'm not a person living in New York State, nevermind NYC, and I have no reason to, nor desire to follow the happenings in New York. So if the understanding I have is wrong, I would invite someone to please correct me.

The perspective I was seeking to explain in my previous post was that of an economist (in a very general sense - I have economic background and understanding, though my understanding would be massively overshadowed by anyone with a major in economics), and explain not only that their reasoning was flawed, but that the idea was faulty from the outset.

Unless there was an alterior motive that I'm not aware of, the people running the show over there, and anyone responsible for making this happen, should be fired, since they basically just took $150M and set it on fire for no reason whatsoever.

[–] MidRomney@lemmy.world 11 points 9 months ago

You also neglected to factor in the economic benefit of people taking a trip they don't pay for vs not taking that trip at all because they can't pay. Those people might be taking the train to work, which increases economic activity and value of the entire system, or to school, which is an investment into the future of the system, or to do shopping or eating at restaurants, both of which add value to the system. But I'm also one of those people that think public transit should be free since giving people the ability to freely move around an area can only have net positive outcomes.

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[–] crackajack@reddthat.com 62 points 9 months ago (6 children)

Many economists already argue that the war on poverty is more like war on poor, and that giving housing to the homeless and unconditional income to the poor actually saves a lot more than putting them on welfare with a view to eventually getting them into workforce. Because of extenuating circumstances too complex to be simply explained succinctly, many people could not find jobs as easily and going on the job market for so long and while under welfare puts more financial and mental strain on those individuals. It costs more to put people on welfare, as you have bureaucracies to pay as well, than to simply give the poor unconditional cash transfers and housing. We're also in an increasingly automated world where jobs are becoming less common so universal basic income is a must.

[–] BluesF@lemmy.world 15 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I'm convinced that UBI would make the world significantly better for everyone. I'm sure it wouldn't outright solve problems like homelessness or poverty - financial literacy is still a thing, and people still fuck up or end up in bad situations that they can't control - but al of these problems would be made significantly less impactful.

I also understand why the ruling classes of the world will never allow it to happen without a fight. If you aren't dependent on your job... Then why stay in a job with poor conditions? Why stay working for a company that doesn't care about you? Why tolerate poor pay? Suddenly workers have 1000x more bargaining power in every discussion with their employer... And frankly a lot of people would want to work part time, which is going through start to impact on company's ability to employ enough staff at all.

Obviously they have a way out - providing employees with a better quality of life, benefits, good pay, work life balance, etc.... but all that costs money and they hate that.

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[–] 100_kg_90_de_belin@feddit.it 6 points 9 months ago

But my Victorian value system!

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[–] BumbleBeeButt@lemmy.zip 47 points 9 months ago (6 children)

Some politician should be in prison for this

[–] OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Despite the recent uptick in fascist sympathy wanting you to think otherwise, politicians making political decisions you disagree with is not actually a jailable offense.

Some politician should lose re-election for this.

[–] Zron@lemmy.world 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Grossly mismanaging public funds should at least involve some kind of disciplinary action.

I think jail is a little extreme unless the funds went directly into the politician’s pocket. But some kind of heavy fine, or removal from office for egregious or repeat offenses seems entirely reasonable. Do we really want to encourage politicians to waste millions in tax payer money hunting down a fraction of that in fines.

They must have known who had outstanding fines and how much it would total to be. Did no one bother to open excel for this whole fiasco?

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[–] dipshit@lemmy.world 40 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Good news! We’ve found the missing $104,000! It only took us $150,000,000 to do so! The remaining -$149,869,000 is left for you and your future children to pay! Remember, vote Republican so we can continue to fleece you for all that you’re worth!

GOP backs the blue, they support NYPD and wholly endorse thier actions.

[–] TheKingBee@lemmy.world 38 points 9 months ago (12 children)

vote Republican so we can continue to fleece you for all that you’re worth

Oh buddy, I've got bad news for you, NYC is democrats all the way down.

Democrats run on being better than republicans, that doesn't mean they are good...

[–] horsey@lemm.ee 9 points 9 months ago

I doubt that the cops are generally democrats.

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[–] Gullible@sh.itjust.works 39 points 9 months ago (1 children)

442 years of overtime. Very bigly. However, this story came from the New York post and I trust no part of it for that reason alone.

[–] Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 9 months ago

The New York Post being the first result when you search doesn’t mean it’s their story. Gothamist covered it first and is even directly cited by the NYP article.

[–] ceiphas@lemmy.world 31 points 9 months ago (6 children)

TIL that a yearly Ticket for NY costs over 1500$ whereas a yearly Ticket for the whole of Germany costs 588€... Seems legit...

[–] wizzor@sopuli.xyz 8 points 9 months ago

I don't know about NYC or Germany, but a yearly ticket that covers the Helsinki metropolitan is 993.70€.

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[–] zerog_bandit@lemmy.world 30 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (8 children)

Can anyone explain to me what the consequence for fare jumping is if they don't do this enforcement? Can an economist explain what the expected value lost from additional jumping is without enforcement?

When I lived in NYC, I began getting monthly passes through work. I did this for 3 years, paying $100/mo or $1,200 a year. I was getting paid pennies to make a big company bigger, so I stopped paying and started jumping. I jumped for around 2 years on my commute and for any other transit. I had a pay per ride card if I was on a date or if I needed the bus transfer. I figured out which cars to hide in to avoid paying for LIRR or the Metro North tickets (hint: at rush hour, no one can walk through the cars).

I was caught one time, I jumped the turnstiles into the 6 train at 68th/Hunter College. Right in front of 3 cops looking for jumpers (of course they were trying to ticket poor college kids). Got a ticket for $85. Still less than my monthly card would have cost. I was gonna argue it with some lame ass excuse but ended up paying it just so I wouldn't have to take a day off work. I still saved over $2300 by jumping.

So, not to say that this program is effective, but how many people were in a similar circumstance as me but decided not to jump because of deterrence policing?

[–] Everythingispenguins@lemmy.world 18 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I would guess the argument is that the enforcement reduces the number of jumpers. So despite them running a negative on cost to catch. If the enforcement wasn't there the number of jumpers would be high enough to justify the cost of enforcement. Having said that I don't know if that is a knowable number.

[–] TheKingBee@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

They are spending 150million that is 1442x what they are losing, even if their enforcement is reducing the number of fare jumpers it would take basically everyone jumping the line to make up the difference.

They'd save money just by eating the cost...

I cannot see how this ever economically works out.

Got some more numbers, this meme (surprise) isn't telling the whole story. I'm still not saying it works out, but it's not this simple.

Okay so the MTA has a budget of 19billion, of which $6.870 billion comes from fares, in 2022 they lost $285million in subway fares, and the police caught 105,000 people in 2023.

I cannot find where the $104k number is coming from, I assume that's the total amount owed by those they caught, but if they caught 105k people that's only a dollar a person so I don't know if it's that low or I'm misunderstanding the $104k number.

Again not saying it works out, but I'm not smart enough to do that math...

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[–] escaped_cruzader@lemmy.world 15 points 9 months ago (4 children)

Can anyone explain to me what the consequence is for fare jumping if they don’t do this?

Number one reason is that it pisses people off as it is unfair

Humans, like monkeys, are allergic to unfairness and more people will just jump because they also want free shit

These policing efforts are just there to keep the number of free riders to the expected parameter and placate the paying users

Capturing back lost fares is inconsequential

[–] Liz@midwest.social 12 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Public transit should be free.

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[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 27 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The L.A. train system (at least when I lived there) had no turnstiles. It was mostly on the honor system. They did have transit cops that would randomly check to see if you had a ticket, but there weren't hundreds of them or anything. You'd see one on occasion.

Somehow the trains are still running.

[–] limelight79@lemm.ee 29 points 9 months ago (1 children)

That's how it works in Europe, at least in cities I've visited (mostly Germany).

If we'd see public transit as a public good, rather than something that's supposed to be a profit center, maybe we could be a little smarter about it...

[–] Sadbutdru@sopuli.xyz 17 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Yes! In Luxembourg it's just free. All busses, trains, funicular, trams, in the whole country, for everyone. Great way to encourage less car use, more active lifestyles, and improve quality of life while also helping the economy.

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[–] gedaliyah@lemmy.world 24 points 9 months ago (1 children)

But if this simply deters fare jumpers for the next fourteen hundred years, then it will have nearly paid for itself!

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[–] HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works 21 points 9 months ago (1 children)

babyslime reblogged snussyeating

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[–] Lojcs@lemm.ee 16 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

Is that a sum of the salaries of police officers stationed in subways? I don't see how else they could spend that much

Edit: I now see that it says extra, so how?

[–] prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works 15 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

I could easily see them spending 150 million to create a “task force”

just speculation

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[–] KevonLooney@lemm.ee 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

It's probably the overtime they paid officers to stand there and play Candy Crush. They will literally stand near the door, without helping, while someone is struggling with a stroller or shopping bags.

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[–] Buelldozer@lemmy.today 14 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Huh, I was just watching a Cash Jordan YT Video last night about the NYC Subway system and in it he said that the MTA estimates its losing 690 Million dollars per year because of people dodging fares.

That's a staggeringly high number but based on volume of people fare dodging in the background of the video I can almost believe it.

[–] SmoothLiquidation@lemmy.world 14 points 9 months ago

The way the original post was written it could be they spent $150 million and the people they caught owed $100k. So they didn’t catch everyone and both statistics can be right.

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[–] Jenoki@lemmy.ml 13 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Can someone please post the source of this statement?

[–] Rediphile@lemmy.ca 21 points 9 months ago

They can't. The headline is misleading if not completely invented. The city lost $690 million to fair evasion in 2022 and likely a similiar number in 2023. Source https://www.transittalent.com/articles/index.cfm?story=New_York_MTA_Fare_Evasion_5-17-2023

[–] derf82@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago

The key word is caught.

They are comparing the ENTIRE COST of fare enforcement to the individuals actually caught and fined for fare evasion (and even then only for individual trips when they likely were evading fares for some time). It ignores the massive amount lost to fare evasion, and all the people that paid because they wished not to be caught.

[–] IanAtCambio@lemm.ee 13 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I saw that the NY transit system made 5.8 billion last year. The 150 million has nothing to do with fare jumpers and everything to do with forcing most people to pay. If it was well known that there is no punishment for not paying, why would anyone pay?

[–] chatokun@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 9 months ago

There's lots of little stuff I could "get away with" but font because I feel like it would harm others. I donate, I return carts, I try to clean up, I'm happy to pay taxes that help people who need it, and just hate how it gets misappropriated for war and the rich. I give tips, I try to be polite and helpful in games, with people online, with people in person, etc.

Not everyone wants to get away with something. Lots of us understand we're part of a community and if we all slack off completely it'll fail. So I do what I can, I purchase works I already read but enjoy and want author to make money off of, etc, as long as I can afford it.

Do I still pirate stuff? Of fucking course I do. However, if it's within my means and I enjoy the product, I feel like I should give back. He'll, it's hard for me to use restrooms in restaurants without at least buying something from the dollar menu or something.

[–] ira@lemmy.ml 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

And don't think you didn't contribute to that $150 mil just because you don't live in New York. NYPD received $500 mil from the federal ARP Act.

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[–] Gork@lemm.ee 10 points 9 months ago

RuLe oF LaW must be enforced, peasants be damned

[–] Kedly@lemm.ee 9 points 9 months ago (1 children)

WAIT, I MISREAD THAT. I INITIALLY READ IT AS THEY WASTED 50K PUNISHING 100K, NOT 149,900K

[–] Knoxvomica@lemmy.ca 9 points 9 months ago

$150,000,000

[–] tygerprints@kbin.social 6 points 9 months ago (15 children)

It's really sad and I see why people blame the police for arresting these folks who are already struggling. But, to be fair, the police aren't acting independently; they are told exactly what to do and who to arrest by people much higher up.

I've seen it here with out Trax train system, homeless people getting harassed by the patrolmen who come along to see if you really bought a ticket or not. And it really is heartbreaking, I just want to say "let me pay for them" but it isn't allowed.

Obviously when this kind of thing is out of control, there's a system problem not just a people problem. I don't know why we can't make mass transit easier for people who are already having difficulties most of us can't even comprehend.

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