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Voting for Biden to prevent Israel's genocide from killing millions of people is not a comprise on supporting genocide. Accelerationism calls for allowing the fascists to successfully takeover the US government and thus accelerationism and anti-fascism are mutually exclusive.
Supporting a candidate that's supporting a genocide so that more genocide doesn't happen under someone else... idk, that certainly does sound like compromise? I was told compromise was something adults were supposed to do, why does it sound like you're offended by this meme?
Lmao, all I did was challenge the 'anti-fascist' label of the project, are y'all really so attached to your benevolent self-image that you cannot conceive of yourselves without that label? You're tolerating a bad thing in service of preventing a terrible thing, you can still feel good about that if you want I wont stop you
Supporting a candidate that’s supporting a genocide so that more genocide doesn’t happen under someone else… idk, that certainly does sound like compromise?
Compromise implies that US voters have some direct agency to influence Israel's war cabinet and are settling for less. US voters have indirect agency to influence Israel based on which US presidential candidate is elected. Biden is pushing for a ceasefire where as Trump wants Israel to "finish what they started". Given the the only option US voters have to interfere with Israel's genocide is to reduce the number of causalities, they should vote for that option.
I was told compromise was something adults were supposed to do, why does it sound like you’re offended by this meme?
My argument is that comprise has nothing to do with the choice US voters are facing this November. What do I have to do with it?
Lmao, all I did was challenge the ‘anti-fascist’ label of the project, are y’all really so attached to your benevolent self-image that you cannot conceive of yourselves without that label?
My argument is about the statement in your meme. The anti-fascist label is the correct label to describe a political movement that is against fascists. That is self-evident.
The anti-fascist label is the correct label to describe a political movement that is against fascists. That is self-evident.
Lmao the anti-fascist label does not have room in it to tolerate material support of genocide, or to justify that tolerance because you need to include those people who support it to serve your other goals.
You're free to call it an 'anti-maga-fascist' coalition if you want. That seems less likely to confuse people who would like to actually act against fascism in all its forms and features, not just the ones that are most immediate to yourself.
Lmao the anti-fascist label does not have room in it to tolerate material support of genocide, or to justify that tolerance because you need to include those people who support it to serve your other goals.
There will be material support of Israel's genocide no matter what US voters do. All US voters have control over in 2024 is how many people are affected by Israel's genocide. Since that metric is what US voters have control over, choices that impact that metric are what distinguishes anti-fascists from fascists.
You’re free to call it an ‘anti-maga-fascist’ coalition if you want. That seems less likely to confuse people who would like to actually act against fascism in all its forms and features, not just the ones that are most immediate to yourself.
Anti-fascism is the correct term for opposing the MAGA movement as the MAGA movement is a fascist movement. Accelerationism supports fascist movements though deliberate inaction and promoting inaction. Again accelerationism is not anti-fascism.
Does your coalition include Biden? Does it include democratic politicians that are obstructing justice against Israeli war crimes? Do you have any justification for Biden to not be more forcefully condemning Israeli fascism other than 'he needs the votes of people who support Israeli fascism'?
Hate to break it to you, bud, but if the extent of your anti-fascist organizing is signing onto the democratic voting rolls then you're not an anti-fascist revolutionary, you're just a anti-republican liberal. Which isn't the worst thing you can be! No shame in shitting on republicans, they're literal neo-nazis. But a part of being an anti-fascist is opposing all fascism, not just the fascism that's most immediate to you.
Does your coalition include Biden? Does it include democratic politicians that are obstructing justice against Israeli war crimes? Do you have any justification for Biden to not be more forcefully condemning Israeli fascism other than ‘he needs the votes of people who support Israeli fascism’?
The goal of the current pro-democracy coalition in the US is to get Biden elected to prevent a christo-fascist dictatorship. This christo-fascist dictatorship will perform it's own genocides and ethnic cleansings at home and support genocides and ethnic cleansings abroad. This pro-democracy coalition is anti-fascist as it opposes the MAGA movement, who are attempting the christo-fascist takeover. Biden being reelected gives us four years to promote socialist and progressive ideas. Ideally we will have a socialist candidate running as a Democrat in the general election in 2028. But to even have a 2028 election our democracy has to survive the 2024 election.
Hate to break it to you,
I have nothing to do with what we are discussing.
Supporting? Bro I'm picking who to box.
C/sneerclub bans anyone who disagrees with the mods' opinions, so I'm responding here. That community is ridiculously over sensitive and scared of any conversation that they don't control.
It seems like nobody has gotten around to changing your workflow yet for whatever your job is. It's on the way, though. For many people, their jobs have already tremendously been transformed, and things have just barely begun getting started.
Thank you! All this "anti-fascist coalition" talk is ridiculous because Biden is also a fascist. He is funding a state that bombs its own residents.
Both presidential candidates are fascists.
You're tolerating a bad thing in service of preventing a terrible thing
I actually think Biden is worse than Trump.
Trump tried to stage a coup against the US government, but Biden is funding a genocide, and that is worse.
Biden is a neo-liberal and a zionist. Biden is complicit in Israel's genocide.
He is funding a state that bombs its own residents.
He's following 70 years of US foreign policy to support Israel. The fact he hasn't abandoned Israel in response to Israel's genocide doesn't make him a fascist.
Trump tried to stage a coup against the US government, but Biden is funding a genocide, and that is worse.
Biden doesn't want the eradication of the Palestinian people and is pushing for a ceasefire. Trump will give Israel free reign to completely eradicate the Palestinian people. What Trump wants to do is worse.
Biden [...] is pushing for a ceasefire.
That's just theatre. Biden says he's pushing for a ceasefire, but his actions (like giving $17 billion to Israel) say otherwise.
And he's blaming Hamas for not accepting the ceasefire, even though reports in mainstream newspapers are reporting that the true obstacle is that Israel has no interest in it. It's as if Biden "proposed" this ceasefire to try to make Hamas look evil for "rejecting" it.
You can't judge politicians by what they say. Only by what they do. And what he's doing is funding Israel's slaughter of men women and children in Gaza, and vetoing any intervention by the United Nations.
Biden says nice things but does terrible things. It's the typical Democrat playbook.
I don't see how Trump could be any worse for the Gazans. Maybe he'll even be better. Maybe he'll be too cheap to give $17 billion to Israel, and tell them to fund it themselves. After all, Trump didn't start any new wars when he was in office (unlike every other recent president).
I don't know what Trump will do. But I know the genocide will continue under Biden, so yes, maybe I'm willing to see if it's better under the other guy. (I mean, I'm not voting for Trump. But I don't feel I need to vote for Biden either.)
Pushing for a ceasefire is one of the things Biden can do. The goal is to pressure Israel as much as Hamas, not just make Hamas look bad. Biden should push Israel harder, and stop sending offensive weapons to Israel, but he doesn't have direct control over Israel.
This is in contrast to Trump, who stated what he intends to do. Trump is a fascist and he is going to allow Israel's government to continue their genocide completely unobstructed. There is no reason to doubt that. Millions of dead Palestinians is worse for the Palestinians.
Biden says nice things but does terrible things. It’s the typical Democrat playbook.
This describes the Republican Party.
After all, Trump didn’t start any new wars when he was in office (unlike every other recent president).
He emboldened dictators around the world to start or advance their own wars.
I mean, I’m not voting for Trump. But I don’t feel I need to vote for Biden either.
The US first-past-the-post voting system is a zero-sum game and Republicans win with low voter turn out. Every vote Democrats don't get is a vote the Republicans do not need to get. US democracy is flawed in that it inherently favors minority rule and is inundated with corporate lobbyists. So, we need record voter turn out if we want to keep our democracy in 2024. edit: capitalization
Biden should push Israel harder, and stop sending offensive weapons to Israel, but he doesn't have direct control over Israel.
Biden could stop this with a phone call.
The only way Netanyahu is able to do this is because he knows he has Biden's support. Netanyahu relies on Biden to veto any action by the United Nations.
All this stuff we hear in the media about how Biden is frustrated with Netanyahu is just theatre. Don't fall for it.
This describes the Republican Party.
No, the Republican Party says terrible things and does terrible things. The Democrats say nice things and do terrible things.
Of course, in the end, there's no difference.
Every vote Democrats don't get is a vote the Republicans do not need to get.
Well, if Joe Biden doesn't like that, then maybe he should stop killing brown children.
Biden could stop this with a phone call.
The only way Netanyahu is able to do this is because he knows he has Biden’s support. Netanyahu relies on Biden to veto any action by the United Nations.
All this stuff we hear in the media about how Biden is frustrated with Netanyahu is just theatre. Don’t fall for it.
Biden has tremendous leverage to push Israel to a ceasefire that he is not using, but needs to use. That includes adopting a UN resolution that condemns Israel's actions. Netanyahu is a fascist who is desperate to prolong or expand the war to stay out of prison. Netanyahu and the other fascists in his war cabinet are not arguing in good faith or under Biden's direct control. The current government in Israel needs to collapse so a new coalition can take power and pull the IDF out of Gaza. The IDF leadership seems to be populated with ideologues and have no interested in eliminating any terrorist groups. The IDF and the current war cabinet want to punish Palestinians and have a bogyman. Netanyahu wants to prevent Palestinian statehood.
No, the Republican Party says terrible things and does terrible things. The Democrats say nice things and do terrible things.
The Republicans consistently say they are the party of small government and freedoms and then consistently work tirelessly to take those freedoms away. Democrats push out incremental progress which is good, but too slow if we are going to advert a climate disaster or prevent a christo-fascist dictatorship with an oligarchy of billionaires.
Well, if Joe Biden doesn’t like that, then maybe he should stop killing brown children.
Biden is not directly killing anyone, although Biden is complicit in the deaths of Palestinian children. The fascists will kill millions of people at home and around the world.
The fascists will kill millions of people at home and around the world.
How?
How are the Republicans going to kill millions of people? What are you suggesting?
Trump regularly states what he's going to do. Trump has said he's going to be a dictator on day one. Trump has said he wants to round up immigrants and homeless people into camps. Trump's going to pull out of NATO and let Russia conquer Ukraine. Project 2025 is posted on a website.
Here is Trump saying he will be a dictator on day one:
Here is Trump on immigrants:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/01/politics/trump-immigration-what-matters/index.html
Here is Trump on homeless people:
Here is Trump on NATO, this is a version from the way back machine without a subscription wall:
Here is project 2025:
The fascists are in control of the Republican Party and these are things they want to do. If the MAGA movement succeed in their christo-fascist takeover millions of people are going to die as a result of these policies.
Trump's going to pull out of NATO
Good? NATO should have been dismantled when the Cold War ended.
Even Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron wanted Europe to have its own army separate from NATO.
and let Russia conquer Ukraine.
If Russia wanted to conquer Ukraine, they would have done so already.
I know I'll be accused of being on Russia's side for saying that, but I'm not. I'm just looking at the evidence.
Russia has always described this conflict as a liberation of the Donbas. They took Donbas in just two weeks and since then have been mostly just maintaining their new borders.
The media want us to think that Russia wants to annex Ukraine and the only reason they haven't advanced is because the Ukraine army is so awesome. And yet this awesome Ukraine army hasn't managed to retake any territory in two years.
Trump has said he wants to round up immigrants
He wants to deport illegal immigrants, which is the same thing the Democrats want. Biden's rhetoric on immigration lately is just as hardline as Trump's.
Democrats chastised Trump for his "build a wall" chant, but the fact is that they supported building a wall until Trump did.
Here is Trump on homeless people:
And what are Democrats going to do for homeless people? Are the Democrats going to launch a mass housing iniative for them?
I don't like that Trump's brand is "being an asshole", and I don't like that 40% of Americans respond positively to that, but the fact is, the Democrats aren't much different in practice. They're just nicer about it.
I've said this before (over on Reddit), but I actually think Trump was fairly good on international matters (he's the only president in recent history who didn't start any new wars), even though he was terrible on domestic matters.
But even when it comes to domestic matters, he's not substantially different enough from the Democrats to make me want to support Joe Biden after what Biden has done.
Good? NATO should have been dismantled when the Cold War ended.
Putin wants to conquer Europe. This is bad. The ideology is essentially a version of manifest destiny where Russia expands westward until it consumes all of Europe. Also, of course the members of NATO need to maintain their armies.
If Russia wanted to conquer Ukraine, they would have done so already.
No, NATO countries have been supplying weapons to Ukraine.
I know I’ll be accused of being on Russia’s side for saying that, but I’m not. I’m just looking at the evidence.
Your argument should provide that evidence rather than pretending it exists. Russia's fascist authoritarian dictatorship has led to military incompetence.
Russia has always described this conflict as a liberation of the Donbas. They took Donbas in just two weeks and since then have been mostly just maintaining their new borders.
Russia tried to take Kyiv and lost.
The media want us to think that Russia wants to annex Ukraine and the only reason they haven’t advanced is because the Ukraine army is so awesome. And yet this awesome Ukraine army hasn’t managed to retake any territory in two years.
Here are some maps that show what has actually happened in the war:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682
Ukraine retook territory by November 2022 which is in the last two years.
Also, Ukraine only recently got the green light to strike into Russian territory. This is already having a huge impact on the war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8qVOdygE2g
He wants to deport illegal immigrants, which is the same thing the Democrats want. Biden’s rhetoric on immigration lately is just as hardline as Trump’s.
Trump wants to round up 15 to 20 million people into camps and then deport them. The magnitude of this does not match what the Democrats want to do.
I followed the link you posted in your argument. This is what I found:
Barring some miraculous breakthrough, on Saturday the current government shutdown will become the longest in American history. But it has already hit another historic milestone: It is, by far and away, the stupidest government shutdown in American history. Sign up for a weekly roundup of thought-provoking ideas and debates
In 2019, the federal government will spend a whopping $4.407 trillion. Yet Congress and the president are shutting down the government in a dispute between the $1.3 billion the Democrats have approved for border security and the $5.7 billion the president is demanding — the difference being precisely 0.0998 percent of the total federal budget. In Washington, that is considered a rounding error.
This is about a government shutdown. Other than the misleading title, the Democrats do not want to build Trump's border wall. Nor is this evidence that Democrats want to deport 15 to 20 million people.
And what are Democrats going to do for homeless people? Are the Democrats going to launch a mass housing iniative for them?
Newsom wants to doing something similar to what Trump has proposed, there's a whole court case that has made it to the Supreme Court about breaking up homeless camps. The case started in Oregon, but has implications for California. But Newsom actually wants to provide housing and services to people. Newsom erroneously believes these need to be forced on people. When Trump talks about rounding homeless people up it's to put them in death camps.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/us/oregon-homelessness-case-supreme-court-california.html
While well intentioned by Democrats, it's going to backfire if Trump takes office. Under Trump, homeless people are going to end up in either prisons or death camps which will end up being the same thing.
Trump seems to love the death penalty. This reporting suggests Trump wants to use firing squads.
Democrats aren’t much different in practice. They’re just nicer about it.
Neo-liberal Democrats wanting to maintain the status quo isn't the nice version of christo-fascist Republicans wanting to kill millions of people.
(he’s the only president in recent history who didn’t start any new wars)
Trump emboldened Putin to continue his war. Trump emboldened Erdoğan to attack the Kurds. Trump emboldened the Taliban to retake Afghanistan. Trump not declaring war is not a measure of success. He destabilized the world the last time he was in office. Under another Trump term we are likely to see China invade Taiwan and North Korea invade South Korea.
But even when it comes to domestic matters, he’s not substantially different enough from the Democrats to make me want to support Joe Biden after what Biden has done.
Biden got an infrastructure deal done and has cancelled some student debt, among other things. This has a list Biden's foreign and domestic accomplishments:
As opposed to Trump's crime spree:
https://www.newsweek.com/full-list-donald-trumps-three-indictments-78-felony-charges-1816951
Reviewing the evidence shows a stark difference between Biden, a neo-liberal, and Trump, a fascist. The difference between another Biden term and another Trump term is that millions of lives can be saved under another Biden term. Where as Trump will usher in a christo-fascist dictatorship that will end our democracy and destabilize the world. These are vastly different outcomes. edit: typo
Russia tried to take Kyiv and lost.
Russia says the attack on Kyiv was to destroy munition supplies and wasn't intended to be an occupation.
I can't know if that's true or not, but Russia hasn't tried any other attacks on Kyiv, so I'm tempted to believe it.
Biden got an infrastructure deal done and has cancelled some student debt, among other things.
Wow. In just four years. How inspiring.
Russia says the attack on Kyiv was to destroy munition supplies and wasn’t intended to be an occupation.
That's a lie.
I can’t know if that’s true or not
Google it. The truth is knowable.
but Russia hasn’t tried any other attacks on Kyiv
That's because Russia is losing the war.
so I’m tempted to believe it.
Why would you want to believe the lies of a fascist dictatorship? Your argument boils down to mistaking Russia's defeats at the hands of Ukraine as a nonexistent strategy.
Wow. In just four years. How inspiring.
Biden has accomplished everything with a razor thin majority in Congress in the first two years and then a Republican controlled House in the second two years. It's impressive.
That's because Russia is losing the war.
So they've been telling us for the past two years while the front line has barely moved.
Why would you want to believe the lies of a fascist dictatorship?
It's not a matter of what I want to believe. (To paraphrase Ben Shapiro, facts don't care about my feelings.)
There are two competing narratives out there, and one fits the evidence I can see while the other is getting increasingly hard to believe.
So they’ve been telling for the past two years while the front line has barely moved.
I already debunked this false claim in my argument.
It’s not a matter of what I want to believe. (To paraphrase Ben Shapiro, facts don’t care about my feelings.)
Facts can't care about anything. Being tempted implies you want the thing that is being offered. I want to know why you would want to be lied to, because it's a weird thing to want. Also, your argument provides no facts and misrepresents Russian defeats by Ukraine as strategy that Russia does not have.
There are two competing narratives out there, and one fits the evidence I can see while the other is getting increasingly hard to believe.
There is the truth and Russian propaganda. Your argument has no evidence to support it.
Also, to bring this discussion back to the original topic at hand, Biden is a neo-liberal and Trump is a fascist. They are not the same. Thus it is reasonable that a group that is against Trump's fascist MAGA movement is anti-fascist.
I think trying to rank which one is worse distracts from the substance of the issue, which is that the electoral system doesn't provide an option that doesn't involve genocide.
They shouldn't be comfortable with sitting on their ass and casting their vote 5 months out, if they felt as bad as they claim they should be protesting their government that refuses to stop running cover for a genocidal religious ethno-state.
And now we have predictably reached the stage where they have become victims
This shit is why I have your home instance blocked.
probably easier just to block me, honestly.
Nope. Your shit needs to be called out just like the others. Blocking anti-democracy lemmy users is exactly what you all want as has been discussed in another thread. It allows you to spread your rhetoric loud and clear with zero opposition.
So you’re actually admitting to purposefully agitating people? That’s respectably bold.
Oh as I said, I don’t block propagandists. They need to be called out. So I’m not sure why you still feel the need to suggest that I have.
And it’s bold to admit to agitating people as here it’s essentially considered trolling. To purposefully anger people- especially when you also admit that what you’re doing is shitposting….
People are banned for far less.
But you’re free to call what you’re doing whatever you would like- it won’t change the fact that you essentially just admitted to trolling people.
