Patient Gamers

Just play the games the way it feels more fun to you. All that should matter about how you play is "are you having fun?" If the answer is yes then you're playing the game "correctly"

If they get friends, I get friends.

Fuck every last person who gatekeeps the way someone uses intentional game mechanics.

I cheesed the game using throwables and summons and I absolutely loved it. Without those I would've been frustrated and spent quality time on ignoring the tools that help me finish the game and compensating with my hard labour.

You said it yourself: you had spent a lot of time learning the patterns, but had grown frustrated by that time. Basically you'd have two choices

• what you did, and finish the fight easily using summons (which is easy only because you already spent a lot of time learning the boss)
• decide to do it without summon, and maybe have the satisfaction to win without help, or submit yourself to too much frustration, rendering the victory meaningless because at the end it had become a chore, and not fun at all.

At the end of the day, the most important element is to have fun. But even with summons, victory is never underserved, those games are still brutal.

People who treat single player/pve games as if they're competitive hobbies are really weird. Their talk of "honor" and of not using mechanics (that are in the game to be used, because the developers want you to use them) because they're "shameful" is extremely silly.

In other words: fuck the gatekeepers, do what makes YOU feel good.

So I haven't played this game, but I think what you're feeling makes sense.

I think for many players, myself included, they aren't looking to have their teeth kicked in. They also aren't looking for a walk in the park, though. Unfortunately, many games' handicap systems (handicap meaning a mechanism that gives the player an added advantage) make it very all or nothing. It's either super difficult, or braindead easy. I'm not saying that no one enjoys playing a game that is basically on rails and un-failable, some definitely do, but I think it's reasonable to say many players want to be met at their edge.

The problem as a designer is everyone has a different edge, and the edge won't even be the same for different activities when it's the same player playing. You might get frustrated by a boss, but absolutely love meticulously exploring an environment, or thinking through a challenging logic puzzle. Others are the reverse.

I don't really have a point to this comment, but I'm a game designer and find this stuff really interesting. It's a very hard problem to solve but I think what you're feeling is completely understandable. If I were you I would feel a little robbed, too!

I play elden ring with no points in str, end, or arcane because I play like a magic user. It may be the wrong way but it sure aint the easy way. Its actually sorta funny watching a walkthrough because yes some things challenging to the guy doing the walkthrough meta like is paltry for me but some things that are paltry for him are horrendous for me.

It‘s a videogame, mate. People who flame others for not making a videogame as hard as possible on themselves should get their priorities checked. If it‘s fun for someone to beat the game hardmode: good for them; but if they expect everyone else to do the same to themselves: touch grass.

Use summons if you think the game‘s more fun for you that way. I do the same and I also enjoy getting summoned and helping lots of players in return.

In soulsborne games, a win is a win is a win. If the boss slips the geometry the wrong way and dies, that counts. Summons are a tool in your arsenal, so use them! Also, sometimes you get to meet a badass like tarkus who solos the whole damn boss in like two seconds.

TARKUS! TARKUS! TARKUS!

Soulslike games are personal challenges. So whatever makes sense to you. but default if it is in the game then it's fair game. If you want to do a run where you don't use summons or limit yourself in some other way then that's cool too. I like doing SL1 challenges. I'm terrible at it but it is fun to see how much i improve

Games should be fun. If you are having fun, you're playing it right. If you are using a feature they put into the game, you can't be doing it that wrong.

It's perfectly fine to be a masochist, but it doesn't make anyone better'n anyone else, or the games better than anything else. Knowing what you like, managing game difficulty, knowing its features and "optimizing" your enjoyment are just another kind of gaming skill. You should never feel pressure to play at harder difficulties than you want, because... why would you? I know "souls culture" is full of screeching 13-year-olds with infinitely long lists of things that make you "nOt a ReAl GaMeR" despite being literally designed and implemented as part of the game, but fuck it: that's why nobody listens to screeching 13-year-olds.

If a summon was available, I'd use it. My logic is that the designers gave me access to these tools, why not?

Having said that, the Nameless Puppet is the only fight where you don't get the summon - so that's the one time the designers expect you to "git gud".

Great fight, the hardest I've ever seen in a Souls-like, but technically fair. Just gotta learn those parry timings, yo.

My only soulslike games have been Sekiro and Lies of P (some bloodborne years ago but didn't finish it).

Like others have said, play the way it feels right to you. I get that you're saying it's somewhere in between - getting frustrated solo, but too easy with summons. If you get to that point again, maybe try using summons to learn the boss (EG get to the second phase every time to then learn the second phase) but don't allow yourself to complete it during that round. Then when you feel ready, back to solo.

Personally, what I enjoy about these games is the design of each encounter. I feel like I only experience the full intended design of the fight if it's 1v1, hitting a boss that is attacking some other npc isn't engaging to me. So I don't touch summons.

If the game is well designed, even a really hard boss should feel fair - when I die, I should be able to understand what I did wrong and what I still need to learn, and once I've seen it all I need to hone my reactions to each tell and pattern. Then it doesn't matter how many tries it takes, as long as I'm still enjoying that process (yes it's still frustrating at times but that usually just means the win will feel even better).

If I'm not enjoying the process, I'll put it down for the day, and play again when I'm into it. If it's so bad that I don't ever feel like playing it again, then that's that I guess. Hasn't happened yet (except Bloodborne, but I wasn't as much of a fan of the genre back then, will play it again at some point. Remaster when?)

I've always thought the soulsborne games encourage taking advantage of everything you can. Kite enemies. Pick them off from a distance with a bow. Summon a friend to help. The systems are there, they didn't get created by accident, feel free to use them as you see fit. Or don't. Just don't be a judgey asshole towards other people for how they play.

I don't summon real people unless I'm truly desperate, but I absolutely use what the game has given me. I don't like to repeatedly have my ass handed to me, and while I could "git gud" (and would have done so in my teens and 20s), I'd rather enjoy my limited play time.

I generally play it solo. I don't have feelings about using magic vs melee.

After a certain point, if it gets annoying, I'll use an NPC summon (or spirit ash in elden ring). But that threshold is pretty high for me, usually

The last boss of the elden ring dlc I was not making much progress on the latter half of the fight, but I also just wasn't seeing a path forward. So I used the mimic and npc summon.

I very rarely summon other players because that feels too much like asking the older kid to beat the boss for me when I was a kid, but that's a standard I hold myself to, not anyone else.

I used to be slightly shittier about this but I've mellowed.

I do think repeatedly summoning someone to heal you isn't in step with the spirit of the game, but that's not something I need to worry about.

I basically don't care. Everything is some degree of handicap one way or another so: find the point that keeps you having fun and don't cross that.

My response to this post and my opinion in general is "play your video game so you enjoy it"

Sorry this is unrelated but I just checked this game out and it's £30 ON SALE??? Videogame publishers are fully insane.

After finishing these two fights (I'm at the Nameless Puppet now🫠), however, I kind of feel like I've robbed myself of a "worthy" victory because it was soo much easier with the summons than without them.

There is no "right way to play," just what you find most satisfying. There's merit to both this and playing without summons.

If you don't have the patience to pull off a more satisfying victory you can always go back and beat them solo later.