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submitted 2 months ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

Ukraine wants permission from the west to use long-range Storm Shadow missiles to destroy targets deep inside Russia, believing this could force Moscow into negotiating an end to the fighting.

Senior figures in Kyiv have suggested that using the Anglo-French weapons in a “demonstration attack” will show the Kremlin that military sites near the capital itself could be vulnerable to direct strikes.

The thinking, according to a senior government official, is that Russia will consider negotiating only if it believes Ukraine had the ability “to threaten Moscow and St Petersburg”. This is a high-risk strategy, however, and does not so far have the support of the US.

Ukraine has been lobbying for months to be allowed to use Storm Shadow against targets inside Russia, but with little success. Nevertheless, as its army struggles on the eastern front, there is a growing belief that its best hope lies in counter-attack.

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[-] Zerlyna@lemmy.world 124 points 2 months ago

Do it now, ask forgiveness later. It’s the American way.

[-] Nurse_Robot@lemmy.world 59 points 2 months ago

I assume the risk is if they do strike without approval, the critical support they're receiving could end

[-] foggy@lemmy.world 23 points 2 months ago

Nah, more like chewed out. 🤠

[-] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 21 points 2 months ago

I've been chewed out before.

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[-] qooqie@lemmy.world 26 points 2 months ago

It’s Israel’s playbook and it works literally every time

[-] sheogorath@lemmy.world 35 points 2 months ago

Israel doesn't even ask for forgiveness.

[-] DontRedditMyLemmy@lemmy.world 16 points 2 months ago

"Ukraine has the right to defend itself"

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[-] tabarnaski@sh.itjust.works 18 points 2 months ago

Might be the American way, but it's mainly Europe that will take the heat in an all out war against Russia.

Also, how does it end? Anyone really thinks Putin will surrender after 3-4 missiles hit Moscow? Come on.

[-] cynar@lemmy.world 28 points 2 months ago

The message wouldn't be to Putin directly. It would be to those both in his power base, or capable of disrupting it.

The goal would be to push Russians to the point they deal with Putin internally, and/or put putin in a position where he needs to end the war to stabilise his own position. It's all about making the right people feel the effects.

Oh, and as a European, I think the risk is acceptable. If Putin struck at a NATO country, the results would likely be swift and short. The only unknown would be Russian nukes, and even those are far more of an unknown than most people think.

[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 21 points 2 months ago

An all out war is unlikely, since if NATO involvement was going to kick that off it would have done so by now.
The next point of escalation that could start something bigger would be stuff like NATO openly sending troops or actively providing fire support.

US hesitation to allow our hardware to be used for this type of attack is much more to do with the political issues surrounding the war being framed as a proxy war instead of defensive support.
The electorates support for "saving the day" and "superior US hardware helping keep a country free" is high. Support for a protracted and complex proxy war without clear right and wrong sides is exhausting and hits too many Iraq/Afghanistan buttons for people to care.

Asking for and publicly being denied permission to bomb targets adjacent to the capitol does just as well at communicating "we can bomb your capitol" as actually doing it.

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[-] Thewhizard@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago

I know it’s ludicrous to need to ask for permission. I’m sure they won’t get it.

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[-] peopleproblems@lemmy.world 68 points 2 months ago

Got no arguments from me here. Bring him hell I say.

What are they gonna do? Bomb your cities, schools, hospitals?

Think we're past the point of asking for permission at this point.

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[-] chronicledmonocle@lemmy.world 66 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

As long as their demonstration is against military targets (and not what Israel would classify as a "military targets"), I say let them. Bomb every Russian military base within 200 miles of Ukraine into a crater. Russia only seems to respond to a show of force, unfortunately with its current leadership, so give it to them.

I just feel bad for the Russians who have to live under Putin's rule. I know several Russians who have fled Russia to avoid drafts or persecution. Hearing them talk about how they "probably will never be able to go home again" is heartbreaking.

[-] vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 20 points 2 months ago

Hell I say let them strike the rails as well, make some Sherman neckties.

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[-] citrusface@lemmy.world 50 points 2 months ago

Kick them in the balls. They aren't fighting fair so why should you.

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[-] IphtashuFitz@lemmy.world 27 points 2 months ago

Sooner or later Ukraine will start manufacturing their own such weapons. They have demonstrated time and again that they the ability to be creative and do what the world never expected of them.

Holding them back at this point is just prolonging the war.

[-] humorlessrepost@lemmy.world 16 points 2 months ago

Holding them back at this point is just prolonging the war.

“Oh noooo!” - Military Industrial Complex

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[-] lennybird@lemmy.world 16 points 2 months ago

I realize that this Kursk offensive by Ukraine was probably also used to show allied nations, "See? We literally just invaded and took over a bunch of land in Russia and they did nothing different. Give us permission."

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

It was intended to draw Russian forces away from the south, where the Ukrainians were unable to reclaim territory.

Ukraine wrecked a bunch of facilities up north, but they're far too drawn out up there to hold any territory. It's more war of attrition at a faster pace.

[-] lennybird@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

True there are several reasons for their offensive into Kursk: 1) Negotiation leverage 2) Diversion of resources for Russia 3) Adding an air-defense buffer, 4) Breaking into the echo-chamber of domestic Russian propaganda, etc. but I just thought of this one to add to the list. Was honestly a pretty great strategic move by Ukraine.

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[-] VinnyDaCat@lemmy.world 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

It genuinely feels like western countries are content to allow the war to drag out for the sake of sacrificing Ukraine to destroy Russia's population. We should be allowing them to aggressively push into Russia, taking the fight off their own territory and moving the war towards a faster conclusion.

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[-] drathvedro@lemm.ee 13 points 2 months ago

As a Russian, I am surprised that this is still a question. Like, duh, it's a war, not a hockey game, bomb right away, what the fuck are you waiting for. I have serious doubts about it turning the tide of war, though, but who am I to tell them what to (not) do.

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[-] thebestaquaman@lemmy.world 11 points 2 months ago

Let them use the ATACMS too.

[-] badbytes@lemmy.world 11 points 2 months ago

If they claim they are just shooting at Hamas, the US won't interfere.

[-] andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works 8 points 2 months ago

And where's Putin? The last I've heard he was in another country.

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this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2024
596 points (97.3% liked)

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