Give me one real world example of where it isn’t used to oppress the working class
this post was submitted on 18 Sep 2023
26 points (57.9% liked)
Memes
45670 readers
885 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
China, 1959-1961. Checkmate liberal
almost two whole years! that's almost 328 years more than capitalism!!
let's see what happens now.
China, 1961-2023. Checkmate Communist
It's always weird to me that people associate Dictatorial Command Economies with Communism. On one hand they like to label themselves as communist but on the other hand y'all really gotta learn to read between the lines. It's like saying socialism has failed buecase the Nazi's had socialism in their name.
This is just the No True Scotsman argument. Every communist nation has always insisted that the dictatorship is a necessary transitional state so that true communism could be achieved, and been run by parties espousing the need to achieve that communism. Those dictatorships have never truly moved towards that.
Either communism is impossible or communism is dictatorship. You can pick either one, but there's not another option.
Negative, the Nazis came for trade unionists first. Quite the opposite of what a socialist party would do.
While the bolshevists coopted the unions and turned them into agents of the Party, corrupting them from representative bodies into people spying on the working class for disloyalty
Buddy, I'm an Anarchist, I don't praise the Bolshevists. I have my critiques of them too but I'm not gonna sit here and say the Nazis were Socialists because they have "socialist" in their name. "Baby oil" doesn't actually have babies in it.
Then I can't argue against you, because it's impossible to argue against hypothetical utopianism.
I couldn't disagree more. How about we stop trying to run dictatorships all together? No one says we need to flip a light switch and suddenly make the world communist. But there are plenty of communist ideals we can try on under democratic systems. Really easy ones that come to mind are forcing companies to give all employees ownership and/or profit sharing. The world isn't black and white and history isn't an example of every possible path forward
Mandating profit sharing doesn't mean communism
Are you deliberately being dense? I'm talking about keeping within the spirit of the thing as a goal to strive toward
Okay? So what does that actually mean?
3 examoles i could give for socialism two of them where crushed by the Soviet Union. Revolutionary Spain and the free territory of Ukraine. One which works since 10 years (while trying not to get crushed by Turkey and IS) and there are some more such free territories which therefore also democratized thier economics. Also fuck tankies btw
Oh, you're a communist? Name every communism.
If you want a list of currently ongoing socialist and anarchist communities with de facto territorial sovereignty, the list goes
Rojava
The Zapatistas
If you want a list of all past socialist territories, the list is too long but the highlights are South Yemen and Anarchosyndicalist Catalonia
Left is the intended outcome, right is what actually happened.
Many different types of communism though, looking at countries with communist pasts.
Unions were started by them, not by liberals and the like.
Compared to today, unions are not that radical. More strikes are coming but both dems and reds stop them.
Looking at Biden breaking the rail road strike.
I think communists would be for gun rights and much more libertarian left polices, to a certain point.
The first international efforts at organizing workers were established by Marx himself. Marx led the International Working Men’s Association (IWA), which was a coalition founded by union leaders in 1864, aimed at uniting various leftist groups, including socialists, communists, and anarchists, to join in the common goal of defeating capitalism.
In 1872, the IWA focused its efforts on the United States, moving its headquarters to New York City. After it disbanded in 1876, the Workingmen’s Party of the United States (WPUS) was founded in its place. The WPUS organized railroad workers in the Great Railroad Strike of 1877, which started in West Virginia and spread across several states, leading to deadly riots. Over one hundred people were killed as a result, and in Philadelphia, rioters burned down 39 buildings and dozens of trains, as well as over 1,200 freight cars.
Unionization continued along Marxist lines, as did the violence. In 1886, after a confrontation between striking employees, strikebreakers, and police, a group of labor radicals (including anarchists and communists) held a rally in Chicago, now referred to as the Haymarket Riot. When one of the speakers at the rally shouted “Exterminate the capitalists!” police intervened, and things became violent. One rioter threw a stick of dynamite at police and shooting broke out; seven police officers and at least one civilian died.
As Weingarten noted in a recent interview, “80% of parents, most parents, want teachers to teach honest history.” That’s exactly what should be taught—honest history. Kids should know about the historical accomplishments of organized labor, and how employees came together to improve their workplaces. They should also know that unionization in America was driven by revolutionary Marxist organizations, and that unions often instigated and participated in rioting and violence.
Unions may have started from the socialist movement, but insisting they're communist in nature is just denying reality. Social liberalism also split from democratic socialism, and is an explicitly capitalist ideology. Genetic arguments are almost always shit, and I challenge you to walk up to the average union worker and ask them if they're a communist.
Communist movement, I do not think it was a socialist movement.
I think most or all of them were not communist, just the leadership or the organizer that gets them together.
Communists were a part of union culture since the bigging, the Red Scare removed most of them, then the unions became less effective.
This is to the best of my knowledge.
Unions became less effective when union rights were attacked by Republicans, manufacturing declined in relative employment, and workers were more exposed to international competition.
The duopoly is the problem, once you understand why, then we can start fights the real battle: working class vs wealthy class
Bill Clinton accomplished what Ronald Reagan couldn't. Joe Rogan - Hillary Clinton Wasn't the Lesser of Two Evils
I'll vote for whoever the strongest opponent to the Republican is. You want to make that a third party candidate, fine, but from what I've seen, the third parties are jokes.
Really good options, you are not looking hard enough.
Alright. Biden versus Trump, what's my third option
That's for me to know, and for you to find out!
Good luck on the search!
So, there isn't one. Gotcha
If that is what you want to keep thinking, I will not stop you.
Have a great day!
So,what is socialism then?
Communism is to a co-op what socialism is to a guild of freelancers.
Socialism has the government control the main industrial output but you're free to do and own your own stuff outside of that. Ideally the government controlled sector's profits would be used to benefit the people again (free healthcare, etc)
Oddly the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) is the best modern example of socialism.
Cool, I'll take socialism over comunism
The transition between capitalism and communism.?
Where's the part about calling for blanket genocide of people based on locality at birth?
Liberals: What if we tried the communism, but without the dictatorship phase?
Marxist-Leninist: Look, we both known I'm just here for the fan service.
Haha did I say liberals? I meant Jacobin. And the literal fucking Internationale. Y'all don't even realize how out of touch you are.
Out of all the times communism has been attempted, please point me to an example of a stable communist nation which promotes freedom for the working class.
Communism aims to establish a classless (no rich or poor), stateless (no military, police or any other tool of class oppression), and moneyless (no currency of any type). No country has ever achieved that. Therefore, communism has never been attempted, let alone implemented.