AliSaket

joined 5 months ago
[–] AliSaket@mander.xyz 2 points 1 week ago

On the second page they mention that him being immediately apologetic was mitigating for his penalty. Still a shitshow, though.

[–] AliSaket@mander.xyz 6 points 2 weeks ago

And when people jump to “yeah but Democrats are to blame” I know we’re usually already in Bad Faithville. Both Sides and all that.

Just no. This is not about both sides in any shape way or form. This is about agency. Fact is: There were ways to do this and the last three Democratic presidents (including the sitting president) have campaigned and outlined plans to codify it into law and didn't. Yes it may have taken people by surprise that the country and the world is regressing as early and fast as it is, but that doesn't take away agency, especially when they didn't even try to spring to action after mere lip service to garner votes.

The thing is: The conservative, religious right, openly formulated and has been following their plan of judicial activism for decades. The lower courts haven't become this biased towards Republican policy over night. It was due to bad luck, bad faith acting of McConnel and the other Republican senators and stubberness of some involved people on the other side of the aisle that Trump was able to nominate this many people to the USSC. It would have happened at some point.

[–] AliSaket@mander.xyz 10 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

They didn't fail. They didn't even try. Not even with a super-majority.

I am sick of such important issues like health of people, let alone half the population, being used as mere strategic play. So please push them to do the right thing, after they're elected. They don't seem to respond without pressure.

[–] AliSaket@mander.xyz 16 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

Hate to be that guy, but it is also the present (hopefully not future) the Democrats have allowed Republicans to build:

Bill Clinton promised to codify Roe v. Wade into law. He didn't.

Obama promised to codify Roe v. Wade into law. He didn't despite having a super-majority in his first two years.

Biden promised to codify Roe v. Wade into law and didn't. The Dobbs decision was taken in June 2022, so before the midterms when Democrats still had a simple majority in the house and a tie + VP in the senate. When there were rumors/leaks a month or so before the decision that the USSC would take that decision soon. Again: Inaction.

[–] AliSaket@mander.xyz 1 points 2 weeks ago

Yes he has. He wouldn't have been able to, if the rules didn't favor that style though.

[–] AliSaket@mander.xyz 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

I would be very surprised if Max hadn’t work shopped the rules with RB to understand exactly what he could and couldn’t do.

Of course.

Where I do think he differs is that hes the only one whose repeatedly gone for this grey area and that this grey boundary has been work shopped as an actual stratergy.

First: I don't think that this is exactly a grey area, but just a big hole in the regulations. But even, if I grant you that, the questions then become: Why is he the only one? And what would happen if everybody started copying that behaviour? To answer the second question: We are beginning to see this up and down the field. And usually what ensues, is chaos and penalties, because it is impossible to judge the criteria correctly from the cockpit and you need Slow Motion or even Frame Freeze Analysis from different angles to correctly judge it. As for the first question, I offer the following thesis: There is this understanding between drivers even in the lower series (maybe not the very young karting; those are ruthless), an unwritten Gentlemen's Agreement if you will. And the written rules have become more and more distanced to those principles.

Lando used Maxs own spells against him

Exactly the problem (and solution). It is normal that you have to somewhat adjust your driving to your opponent you're racing. Here, Lando went more aggressive on the brakes. Important to note though: While still making the corner, albeit in a sub-optimal fashion for a chicane with a straight after it. The difference in braking points can be well explained by that line. Max on the other hand went less aggressive than he did before, mainly because Carlos was directly in front of him, before then accelerating and thereby widening his line. I do wonder if Carlos wasn't there: Would Max have kept his nose in front of Lando at the apex and then maybe even ran wide himself like during the US GP and got away with it? Because them's the rules? Remember: The penalty for turn 8 was because he overtook outside of track limits, not because he crowded Lando off almost causing a collision and the stewards explicitly note that he would have been entitled to racing room. And for the T12 incident at COTA they write:

Car 4 was overtaking Car 1 on the outside, but was not level with Car 1 at the apex. Therefore under the Driving Standards Guidelines, Car 4 had lost the “right” to the corner. (...) A 5 second penalty is imposed instead of the 10 second penalty recommended in the guidelines because having committed to the overtaking move on the outside the driver of Car 4 had little alternative other than to leave the track because of the proximity of Car 1 which had also left the track.

As you can see, the forcing off track is only mitigating for Lando's lasting advantage penalty, but not in itself a breach of the rules for Max, who wasn't investigated or even noted for it, although he was only first at the apex because he couldn't keep it on track himself.

EDIT: Spelling

[–] AliSaket@mander.xyz 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Agreed, the balance isn't easy to find, but it's not a law of nature either. How it has (had?) been handled though, it robs us all of great racing. If you think back to the great duels this year, they weren't because the drivers all aggressively raced to the apex, forcing off of and risking collisions with other drivers. And then there's the old story of: imagine if there was grass or gravel out there, I assure you, that they both would have behaved very differently.

Obviously there’s a difference between being forced off and putting yourself in a silly position where you run out of track

There's already the notion, that when locking up for example, then you aren't fully in control of your car anymore and at least for collisions, that assigns you blame. So one could generalize that.

[–] AliSaket@mander.xyz 6 points 2 weeks ago

Yes we've seen a lot of this. That's exactly the point. These problems aren't new and the calls for change aren't either. In fact, Alonso warned of exactly this behavior and the problems that come with it years ago.

To the point of allowing a collision to happen, I'm reminded of a somewhat different situation of 2019, but one which should have been a slam dunk penalty: Leclerc forcing off Hamilton in the braking zone of the second chicane in Monza. The implication of the stewards' reasoning was that because there was no contact, there wasn't a time penalty. And there was only no contact, because Lewis took to the grass to avoid the collision. So yes, this problem has also existed for a long time and yes, inconsistent ruling makes it only worse. The fact remains though, that under the current regs, you can get away with throwing your car in somewhere and counting on the other driver to avoid a collision.

 

Two 10-second penalties were given to Max after the two incidents in T4 and T8 of the 10th lap of the Mexico GP last Sunday. Additionally, 2 penalty points are added to Max' license which brings the total to 6 during 12 months. If I were to ask you, which of the two incidents would merit the 2 penalty points more, would you have guessed, it's the T4 incident?

In their official document of the T4 incident, the stewards are of the impression, that Lando was in front of Max 'at the entry, apex and towards the exit of the turn when he started being forced off the track' and that Lando would have been able to stay on track to finish the maneuver. (Sidenote: Horner's argument, that one would take the same lines and braking points during a fastest lap and when going wheel to wheel is laughable on its face.) The standard penalty for forcing another driver of the track has been applied. I can't see any problems with the reasoning in this case.

Now for the T8 incident:
'Following the incident in Turn 4, Verstappen attempted to pass Norris on the inside at Turn 8. Verstappen was ahead at the apex of Turn 8 and would have been entitled to racing room.' It is only because he didn't stay on track while doing all this shenanigans and then stayed in front, that he got a 10 second penalty without penalty points, which is the standard penalty for 'Leaving the track and gaining a lasting advantage'. It is not for forcing off another driver, or for provoking a crash (which Lando barely avoided).

And there lies the problem with the current driving standards guidelines. The only one available somewhere is a version from the Imola GP of 2022 (so they might be slightly out-of-date). On the second point of overtaking on the outside, they read:

'In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.

When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner.

The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track.'

There's 3 problems with this.

  1. It just makes it a race to the apex, which is in itself ill-defined. A quick part-fix: They could clarify it ahead of each weekend, e.g. given the ideal line for a quali lap. If you overtake on the outside, you'll have to get ahead by that apex and still remain on the track. If overtaking on the inside, make sure the 'front tires are alongside the other car by no later than the apex' and you are entitled to 'sufficient room'. If not, you can be forced off track, or the door closed on you respectively. Doesn't read too bad if not for the imprecise definition, the bias towards the inside car (front tires alongside the other car vs. ahead of the other car) and that it only works in one direction (if I overtake someone on the inside and got my tires alongside the sidepod of the one overtaken, I have to do it in a safe manner, but can crowd them off the track depending on the interpretation).

  2. the last part of the overtaken car having to be capable of making the corner has just been ignored until that T4 incident. For a recent example: The US GP. The 'gaining an advantage' is not well defined at all ('This may include giving back the timing advantage up to drop back a position behind the relevant driver') and should imho be explicitely extended by being able to hold a position by going off-track.

  3. Causing a collision is regulated in the International Sporting Code, App. L, Article 2.d). There is nothing about a provocation of a collision which was only avoided by the actions of another driver. So there is a way too large grey area which incentivizes the wronged party to actually make small contact in order for the other driver to get a penalty. And since we aren't playing bumper cars, this should be more clearly regulated, especially since the not leaving 'sufficient room' part has also been criminally negleted over the years.

Now add to all of this the inconsistencies between different stewards, or of the same stewards during the same GP (e.g. TSU penalty vs. VER non-penalty during the US GP a week ago) and we have a completely chaotic situation, where actual racing comes short.

I would love to do an actual deep dive and clip out all relevant incidents back to 2020/21 when Lewis and Fernando brought fourth the same arguments, that seem to have become more clear for a broader audience now that Max is arguably more brazen with his interpretation of the rules and guidelines and others are starting to imitate it. Alas I lack the time. The Mexico and US GPs in 2024 should be more than enough to make the points clear. And it is a positive sign, that the driving standard guidelines will be changed come 2025 and that the drivers had a productive meeting last Friday in Mexico.

[–] AliSaket@mander.xyz 1 points 2 weeks ago

Basically waving by Sainz into T1 would tell us otherwise.

[–] AliSaket@mander.xyz 11 points 2 weeks ago

Huh, that looks suspiciously Musk related. If you know any Jewish people in your area, ask them whether they've received a message of being a Hamas defender.

[–] AliSaket@mander.xyz 13 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Never forget that in 2016 13% of Trump voters voted for Obama in 2008/12. Maybe the Democratic Party can share some blame, instead of just shaming the voters.

[–] AliSaket@mander.xyz -2 points 4 weeks ago

Look, I get what you are saying and even agree to a certain degree. Yet, the premise here is that one of both parties is opposed to genocide, which is false. For the affected voter group, who are getting shamed for making the crime of crimes their litmus test, both people are trying to make more holes albeit of different sizes.

So, what would you do? I would probably throw both of them over board ;)

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