[-] join_the_iww@hexbear.net 5 points 3 days ago

lmfao I didn’t even know that half of it

[-] join_the_iww@hexbear.net 7 points 6 days ago

That’s not what I was getting at. I was assuming that people who come across this post would already know that Israel oppresses non-Jews. My point is that it gets even worse than that: the non-Jews are the numerical majority, so the whole thing is more egregious than many Americans might be aware.

I guess I do think a numerical majority being subjugated is more noteworthy in some ways than a numerical minority.

[-] join_the_iww@hexbear.net 9 points 6 days ago

I brought it up because it kind of disproves the idea that “Jews have a special relationship with that region and/or are uniquely entitled to it.” They’re not even the majority there currently! And they weren’t in 1948 either.

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The state of Israel currently controls an area of land comprising four distinct regions: the 1948 green line territory (what could be considered “Israel proper”), the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights.

In total, about 14.8 million people live in this combined area, with a plurality (but NOT a majority) of them - 7.2 million - being Israeli Jews. That means that the rest, the majority, are non-Jewish - they include Gazans, West Bank inhabitants, and non-Jewish Israeli citizens (aka ‘48 Arabs).

Are Americans aware of this? It doesn’t get brought up very much, but to me this seems like a pretty significant fact. We’re sending billions of dollars a year to Israel so that a minority of the people who live there can have a special set of rights over the majority.

I did not know this prior to October 7th. I was pro-Palestinian prior to that anyway, but I mistakenly thought that Israel was, at least, oppressing a numerical minority rather than a majority.

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Seventy years after the liberation of Auschwitz, two-thirds of the world's population don't know the Holocaust happened—or they deny it…

The Middle East and North Africa had the largest percentage of doubters, with only 8 percent of respondents reporting that they had heard of the genocide and believed descriptions of it were accurate. But only 12 percent of respondents in sub-Saharan Africa said the same, and only 23 percent in Asia. People in these groups were likely to say they believed the number of deaths has been exaggerated—just over half of Middle Easterners and a third of Asians and Africans think the body count has been distorted over time…

In almost every religious group, people younger than 65 were much more likely to say they believe that facts about the Holocaust have been distorted, and they were less likely to know what the Holocaust is.

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[-] join_the_iww@hexbear.net 36 points 1 week ago

In their perception, Britain turned against the Zionists around 1939 or so (White paper) and sided with the Arabs in opposing a Jewish state after that. So they mean “Independence” as independence from Britain.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine

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"we'll never be able to accomplish fascism in the US because our base of suburban Fox News watchers are stupid and incurious about political theory" is a pretty amusing premise

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[-] join_the_iww@hexbear.net 27 points 3 weeks ago

What the hell does “self-determination” even mean? I feel like since 10/7 we’ve all been gaslit into the idea that “self-determination” is some obvious, uncontroversial thing

[-] join_the_iww@hexbear.net 35 points 4 weeks ago

Free Palestine

(Bum-Bum-Bum)

From the river to the sea

THE SEA

THE SEA

ba-da-ba-da-ba

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I'm probably just ignorant, but aren't these kind of the same thing?

The upshot of both seems to be "modernity is bad, the right way for humans to live is in some vastly simpler system characterized by either sustenance farming, shepherding, and/or hunting & gathering".

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https://www.marxists.org/archive//draper/1948/07/israel.htm

I read this recently, and I was honestly kind of shocked because it's just so different from how leftists talk about this issue now.

Draper's ultimate proposal is one that we would probably agree still with today (socialist one state solution, Jewish and Arab workers united together, both groups overthrowing their bourgeois or feudal rulers), but a lot of the premises he endorses in the process of reaching that conclusion are just not things that you would hear supporters of Palestine say anymore today. For example:

  • he is very supportive of the concept of Jewish self-determination
  • he referred to the Arab countries that declared war on Israel as "semi-feudal oppressors" and "some of the most backward and reactionary kingships and dynasts of the world"
    • he writes further that "The attack upon the Jews’ right to self-determination comes from a deeply reactionary social class – the Arab lords – whose reactionary aims in this case are not alleviated by the fact that they themselves suffer from the exploitation of British imperialism (at the same time that they cling to that imperialism in order to defend their privileges against their own people)."
  • he accuses the UK, and in particular the British Labour Party (which was the majority governing party at the time) of "propping up the Abdullahs and Arab landlord-princes of the Middle East against the Jewish state"
  • he expresses support for "full recognition of the Jewish state by our own government; for lifting the embargo on arms to Israel; for defense of the Jewish state against the Arab invasion in the present circumstances"

This is all certainly a lot more charitable to Israel/Zionism than we are today. Now, Jewish Israelis are considered undeserving foreign invaders and settlers; it is believed that the state of Israel is an unambiguous creature of Western Imperialism and has always been such; and Arab opposition to the state of Israel is considered progressive instead of reactionary.

What should we make of this? Is this a good representation of how Marxists generally talked about this conflict at that time, or was Draper an outlier? At the time he wrote this, was he wrong about any of his judgments? Was he right to characterize the conflict in this way at the time, but just proven wrong by later history?

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His punishment was he got suspended from the party for a little while and then reinstated with a warning not to say anything like that again for the next three years. So basically a slap on the wrist.

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[-] join_the_iww@hexbear.net 21 points 1 month ago

I wish homeownership wasn’t so important in the US.

I’m probably going to buy a house at some point because it’s what makes sense given how our society is currently set up, but really I wish I could just rent an apartment for the same as (or marginally more than) what it costs to maintain & insure an apartment. If I could do that then I wouldn’t really give a shit about owning a home.

[-] join_the_iww@hexbear.net 26 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Civil Rights Corps is way better

[-] join_the_iww@hexbear.net 52 points 3 months ago

One memory that sticks out to me is, I was reading some comment thread about like unemployment or something, and somebody wrote a comment that was something like the following:

"Republicans dream of a country where everyone is their own small business owner, but that's literally impossible to achieve because then there wouldn't be any workers. Capitalism needs workers."

Suddenly a lot of things about the economy started to make more sense. I became a socialist not long after that.

I think it was an r/politics thread, strangely enough

[-] join_the_iww@hexbear.net 37 points 6 months ago

“Just get a raise to catch up, if you can’t then that’s your own problem.”

[-] join_the_iww@hexbear.net 47 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Russia supports Hamas; Ukraine supports Israel.

This in particular stands out as extremely questionable, if not just outright false.

Netanyahu and Putin have been fairly friendly for a long while, and Israel has in many ways sided with Russia since the invasion of Ukraine in 2022 (continuing diplomatic relations with Russia when many countries broke off with them, not sanctioning Russia, not sending weapons to Ukraine, etc).

Both Ukraine and Russia have formally condemned the settlements, and Israel has gotten butthurt about it in both cases. Russia is somewhat more aggressive about reaching a two-state solution and making concessions to the Palestinians than Ukraine is, but it’s not a huge difference.

It’s fairly complicated, but overall I don’t think either Ukraine or Russia can be said to be more supportive of Israel (or of Palestine) than the other one is. Israel has a lukewarm relationship with both. There are no strong contrasts to be made here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine%E2%80%93Ukraine_relations

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Ukraine_relations

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Russia_relations

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine%E2%80%93Russia_relations

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join_the_iww

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