this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2023
381 points (100.0% liked)

politics

22274 readers
229 users here now

Protests, dual power, and even electoralism.

Labour and union posts go to !labour@www.hexbear.net.

Take the dunks to /c/strugglesession or !the_dunk_tank@www.hexbear.net.

!chapotraphouse@www.hexbear.net is good for shitposting.

Do not post direct links to reactionary sites.

Off topic posts will be removed.

Follow the Hexbear Code of Conduct and remember we're all comrades here.

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
 

๐Ÿ‡ต๐Ÿ‡ธ

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[โ€“] zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Taking hostages is fine, and wtf are you supposed to do if you take parents hostage? Just leave the children there in the middle of a war zone alone?

No reason to hit prisoners if they are cooperative. Agreed, sexual violence is never permissible under any circumstances. Attacking Israeli adults is fine, they are settlers and on stolen land economically supporting an apartheid state

[โ€“] JuneFall@hexbear.net 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Taking hostages is fine, and wtf are you supposed to do if you take parents hostage? Just leave the children there in the middle of a war zone alone?

Israel is small. You can leave the children and the videos of the kids show that the children are not protected, they are hit with sticks and batons and insulted as Jews. Besides that, yes. Those kids are not Tsarist kids. Save your gray propaganda for good goals. You can also find a video in which parents are killed and a child is taken. Or children that are killed. For the outcry that a targeted and thus killed journalist by IDF forces took this ignores that there is a strategic level of Hamas which obviously encouraged what happens, as it is wide spread and communicated via established Hamas video channels and thus shown, it also got an individual vengeance and revenge component.

The actions of Hamas do show their regressive reactionary nature and that the solidarity for socialist groups in Israel is not existent within them. What we know now, too, is also that it doesn't seem to have been a unified operation, meaning that the PFLP and other Marxist groups within Gaza are not really having impact on the strategic operations or are shut out completely.

This means that critical solidarity ought to be critical. If you do a large incursion like that you really argue that shooting young ravers and killing some after taking them hostage, is the best use of your short lived incursion? In any case I have yet to have seen text based Marxist reasoning which isn't vibes based or goes beyond "national liberation justifies any violence".

What is the aim here is to say any person - which includes plenty of Israeli Arabs (at least 20% of the population), also some who were at the rave - outside of Gaza and West Jordan is a legitimate aim to be killed, tortured, (sexually) assaulted, kidnapped. The terror of the guillotine and the committee for hygiene was more targeted and more in line with progressive politics than that. The "no excuse for the terror" doesn't mean it is arbitrary terror, it is focused on revolutionary goals. They also could've had Marxist and pre Marxist reasoning. The operation in Palestina and Israel was not one of national liberation with a class based analysis, but one in which there are people assigned as oppressing colonialists (everyone at the rave i.e. who wasn't coming from Gaza).

The goal of course is to weaken Israel's tourism industry, to unify power within Gaza, to divide Israel and Saudi Arabia and have hostages to do prisoner swaps. Though it is somewhat unlikely that this nearly 60 year old practice will work as before with the current right wing government in Israel and the lack of current good will. It did strengthen unity in Israel.

[โ€“] zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Palestinians fighting for their survival are not reactionary or fascist, and I think you are being chauvinist

[โ€“] JuneFall@hexbear.net 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Palestinians fighting for their survival are not reactionary

If you think that then you aren't a Marxist. Of course within Gazan society and Hamas you have reactionaries and reactionary actions. Are all? No. Plenty of groups that are or were active in Gaza aren't reactionary. Read Marx's https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/

[โ€“] zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If you think that then you aren't a Marxist.

what the fuck are you talking about? The primary contradiction is imperialism. If you think those resisting genocide are fascists then YOU aren't a marxist. Such chauvinism. The fact that some are socially reactionary is immaterial to them being on the objectively correct side of an anti-colonial and anti-imperialist struggle. Failure to support them is tantamount to class treason

[โ€“] JuneFall@hexbear.net 5 points 1 year ago

If you think those resisting genocide are fascists

Don't try black propaganda here, not in any way did I claim that. You are ignoring the structures of Gazan orgs and society, you are talking without investigating and you are disturbing. I recommend you disengage.