this post was submitted on 13 Oct 2023
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Something I've always wondered is what kind of women were in the lives of incel men when they were young. Did they have a bad relationship with their mother? Did they lack sisters or other female family members? Or is their family situation irrelevant? Maybe some particular situation in their early years caused them to develop a complex around women?

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[–] bouh@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (5 children)

It is not linked to the past, it is a rejection trauma.

It is considered normal in our societies to be with someone. And as a man, you are culturally expected to be able to find a woman, and you are responsible for it. If you are a single man, it is because you choose it or because you're a failed man. The media like to talk about how you now have sex at 11 and how men have many relationships. When you're still virgin at 18, you already feel like a miserable failure. And the longer it goes, the harder it become. For some men they don't even need to be virgin, they may have had their first relationship by luck.

Then came #metoo. Many men discovered how hard women had it because of men. And this broke something: before, when you were bad with women, you merely had to man up. There was only one model for men, but it was there. After metoo, this model was broken. Now men are completely helpless.

This second point is reinforced politically by the fact that the left spend a lot of time to talk about women problems, but never talks about how men should be to be successful with women. You have feminist movements spreading hatred against all men, and this is also hard. When communication makes it like all men are assholes and can't behave with women, but no one tells you how you should do instead, you just feel attacked and helpless.

With that, these men are completely destroyed. Suicide is an option an this point. But hatred is another one. And fascism lives out of hatred. But fascism came later. First there was hatred as an exit of this situation for the desperate men: it's not their fault, it's women fault. That's only the only way you can go out of the misery. And with hatred, you can start to blame them for everything that's happening. You're single because the women are stupid and prefer the machist men. And feminism is a fraud.

And oh boy do fascists love this situation! Now they can easily radicalise you because you already did the job. Because the progressive left abandoned these men, the fascists gladly took the opportunity. And you now have a strategy and a market around this.

Not all men fall for this. But the pain and hardship is shared by many men nonetheless. The problem is societal: there is no counter-model to the one old toxic one that's been discarded by #metoo. You can't merely make your own model, because the point is to be attractive to women. Which means it actually is a problem for women too. But the progressists unfortunately forgot those men in their fights for the rights of the sexual minorities and the women, so these men are alone.

As a man, you no have 3 solutions : you are lucky enough to be with a woman already ; you embrace the toxic masculinity of the fascists ; or you're left alone in a no man's land of solitude and despair. The incels are the men going from the 3rd to the 2nd category.

Society is changing. The process will take time with highs and lows. We're getting into a low with this problem, and we'll go to a new high when we will have fixed it. But for now, incels will be the symptom of the failure to include men in feminism.

[–] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Feminism does not exclude men.

The media like to talk about how you now have sex at 11

What?

Now men are completely helpless.

WHAT?

How can you think so poorly of men, to believe their only purpose in life is finding a sex partner, and blame feminism for anything? Maybe learn to respect yourself and realize that you have value and things to contribute to this world that don't have anything to do with romantic relationships.

[–] bouh@lemmy.world -3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Maybe some people want romantic relationships.

Women fought to have the lives of men: a public, non romantic life, and that's an excellent thing.

Many men today want romantic relationships. How is this a bad thing? What kind of monster are you to say that a man should suck it up and forget any idea of intimacy or romantic relationship with a woman?

This is exactly the reason why these people turn incels or machists. And you're not worth more than them.

I don't blame feminism. I don't blame the left. I point at their shortcomings. You can't build a world of equality of you don't include men.

The future is together.

[–] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Please point to exactly where I said that. It's fine to want a romantic relationship. But if anyone - man or woman or anything in between - defines their entire self-worth on that one single thing, then they're going to have a very bad time in life. Relationships end. People die. If the only thing you can see yourself as is the partner to another person and you lose (or can't get) that other person, then you're lost.

Work on being whole yourself and defining your value to and for your own self. Work, art, skilled hobbies, charity, friends, family. All of these things can provide value to your community. Find self worth outside of romantic relationships is the best advice for anyone in the world, even people who are currently in romantic relationships.

[–] thenightisdark@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

What you call lost is the very definition of human.

Looking for a relationship is not lost it is the most human thing to do.

What is more human than finding another human to procreate with?

Everything else you mention all valuable is secondary to social. The cruelest thing you can do to a human is to put them in solitary confinement.

[–] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Bro, you are going to have a difficult life, if you think of existing in your community as solitary confinement. I'd advise you to go get involved in something. Go find a maker space to volunteer at, volunteer at the library, talk to your neighbors, join some kind of outdoor activity group.

You can do all of this while ALSO trying to date. You can (and should) do this kind of stuff even after you get married. You can't just sit around feeling bitter and expect a relationship to solve that for you. That right there is a perfect recipe for a relationship that will fail. You have to be your own person even when you're in a relationship.

There's more to "being social" than just finding a person to have sex with you and calling it a day.

[–] thenightisdark@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago

"existing in your community as solitary confinement." -- Chetzemoka

What a strange take. Isn't this a contradiction? Anyways I just want to point out that this is.... A wrong take. Very strange and very wrong take.

Just know that being social is being human. You seem to forget that at times.

[–] optissima@possumpat.io 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Read some feminist theory then.

[–] bouh@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

Or maybe try to understand the people around you instead of diabolizing them.

[–] optissima@possumpat.io 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You have feminist movements spreading hatred against all men, and this is also hard.

Lies, this is propaganda by the reactionary anti-feminism movements

no one tells you how you should do instead, you just feel attacked and helpless.

Again, made up. It's simply that any solution presented didn't offer the same power dynamic the previous one did, because women are more empowered.

As a man, you no have 3 solutions.

Lmao what??? Where's the "be a decent, respectful person while also being authentic," the one that has been doled out for decades at this point?

incels will be the symptom of the failure to include men in feminism.

I see you have no idea what you're talking about, because you're not at all educated on feminism. Men are not in the title of feminism, and they're angry they're not.

[–] bouh@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago

It's funny how your last sentence directly contradict your first one, don't you think?

I'm all for being decent, authentic and blablabla. But that's not the matter. Which shows how oblivious you are to the problem.

The problem is about dating and romantic interactions. Being decent, romantic and authentic is a worthless advice.

[–] mycatiskai@lemmy.one 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Seems like these incels have no personal responsibility, it is society's fault.

[–] time_lord@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Yeah, kinda.

If you need help or support of some sort, and you're black, there are tons of black or African American support groups available. If you're a women, again, there are tons of support groups. Black and a woman? Congrats, you can double dip.

Now, what's the first pro-white-male group you can think of.

That's why I think it's not just an individual problem, but a societal one.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Now, what’s the first pro-white-male group you can think of.

Ku Klux Klan

...but why would anyone want to associate with garbage white supremacists?

If you need help or support of some sort, and you’re black, there are tons of black or African American support groups available. If you’re a women, again, there are tons of support groups. Black and a woman? Congrats, you can double dip.

In the USA at least, those other groups (black support groups, women's support groups) exist because of the long history of bad things that white males have done to every other race and gender. Those groups work to counteract at least a small part of the hundreds of years of white male oppression on these groups.

Being a white male in the USA is still one the most privileged groups. Don't think so? Ask a woman about very basic things they have to do be safe, such as having a friend with them to walk at night or worrying about a man drugging their drink at a bar/party. Ask a person of color about the risks of being fully licensed to drive a car but being in the wrong type of city, or the risks of them owning a legal firearm and having an encounter with Police officers.

The only thing being more privileged than "white male" in the USA is "rich white male".

[–] time_lord@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Being a white male in the USA is still one the most privileged groups.

Agreed.

But that doesn't mean that white men are exempt from needing help.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

With issues facing all human beings, sure! However, what help are you arguing white males need because they are white males?

[–] mycatiskai@lemmy.one 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I assume you mean what is a pro male group that doesn't have negative societal impacts. There are plenty of pro white male groups: NFL, NHL, their fan clubs, pro soccer(euro football) fan groups, NRA, Elks, Shriners, Freemasons.

What is really missing is a pro male, not at the cost of being neg-female group. It also doesn't have to be a white men group, realizing that all men need to have a place to be men together but also not be stereotypical men but emotionally transparent, honest with eachother men.

Admittedly I haven't read this whole article but this kinda group sounds reasonable: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/18/the-good-men-inside-the-all-male-group-taking-on-modern-masculinity

[–] eatthecake@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

#metoo made made men helpless? Dont rape confused you? Really?

[–] bouh@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Are you stupid or did you simply not read? Otherwise if you didn't understand something you can just ask instead of being an asshole.

[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Exactly this. I'm someone who definitely could have fallen into the incel pipeline and you hit the nail on the head. To be clear, I'm 28 years old and have never gotten past a first date (and have only had one of those). I've only ever experienced rejection. I've never experienced any kind of physical or emotional intimacy from someone I was attracted to. Basically every aspect of human culture and society make me feel like a failure for this. Of course, while I am "involuntarily celibate", I'm not an incel. I have the good sense to realise that it's my own fault and to hate myself rather than to place the blame with women. I have a recently diagnosed case of Autism Spectrum Disorder which has hardly impacted other aspects of my life. I have friends, a career, pastimes, I live on my own. Literally the only place where I feel "disabled" is in trying to form meaningful connections with women.

[–] bouh@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

I feel for you. I'm in the same boat. I hope it'll get better for you.