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this post was submitted on 11 Jul 2023
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I'm not really part of the LGBTQ+ community, just a (mostly) straight guy who's subbed here so I can experience other viewpoints and help grow my own understanding, so take what I say as you will, but ultimately it boils down to:
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter to you, the casual observer, what other consenting adults are doing. Seriously, it's not your story, so why bother trying to insert yourself into it? Say you see a couple of guys holding hands in the street; how long are you going to hold onto that memory of them? Realistically, they'll walk by and within ten minutes you'll have forgotten they exist, so why let yourself notice them in the first place? Or more to the point, why assign any kind of morality to them?
As a society, I think we could be far better at letting people just live their lives without assigning our own thoughts and emotions onto them. We don't have their lived experience, so we shouldn't get upset when they don't conform to our internal rulebook.
But that can be hard to do when we as a species are wired to make quick assessments. Those quick assessments have helped us to evolve to where we currently are, it helped our ancestors rapidly figure out who could be trusted, whether an animal was likely to try and eat us, whether our food could poison us. But none of that makes any sense when it comes to looking at a consenting couple living their lives in public, and immediately placing them in an 'undesirable' box.
All you can do is what you've done here; engage with people from different backgrounds, and try to learn to understand that, regardless of who they have sex with (or not), or whether their outward look conforms to whatever genitals you suspect they have, they're just people trying to live their lives and be left alone.
I am going to play devil's advocate here for the sake of discussion on if it matters what consenting adults do in public.
Let's say we have two moms going to the local library. One is very conservative and the other very liberal, but both are busy-body 'Karens'. They see flyers for 2 events: one is kids story time with a drag performer, and the other is a 'jack-ass' style competition in the park in front of the library -- promoted with pictures of people (constentingly) getting kicked in the groin. Both Karens are shocked that their kids would be exposed to such outrageous behavior and do not want the kids copying such behavior -- but each only object to ONE of those events.
Both are going to complain to their city council and try to get their peeve banned. Do either of them have a point? Would it matter if it wasn't an 'event' and just people going about their daily lives (kids smacking each other around or dressing up for fun)?
My instinct is to say that it should all be allowed, but I can imagine some argument about the deterioration of society or some such.
"Quantifiable harm" might be a distinction to draw here. There are immediate, obvious, and potentially life-long physical complications from a jack-ass style competition that are literally physically tangible. There is no arguing with "Little Timmy's ball got kicked off and he's going to be a eunuch for life." The 'harm' caused by children attending a story time with a drag performer isn't quantifiable in the same way.
From what I understand of drag, it is a style of expression akin to an art form or a theatrical performance. Just as any other art can be overtly sexual, drag can be too, but like movies, music, and sculpture it can be used to express a wide range of complex topics.
The mother reacting poorly to the story time is misinterpreting the concept of drag likely due to preconceived biases or social influence, and that interpretation should be corrected through exposure and conversation. Ideally they would seek that learning out, having recognized that the flyer made them uncomfortable. Maybe they go to the story time without their child and respectfully watch to see if such activities would be appropriate in their eyes for their child in the future.
The jack-ass competition sounds like a real legal liability for the library and city given the physical harm likely to be brought to participants, so I doubt it would be likely to exist. I also doubt many parents would sign their kids up for such a competition.
Assuming the flyer were there and approved to be there, it would not be an issue for the reason stated either. You can not and should not expect the world to hide your child from everything harmful, if they notice and ask about it, it can be a learning experience for them to talk about why they can't participate. It's also not the first time they have seen that sort of behavior, their classmates act like that on the playground and the cartoons they watch have it in every episode. Tom and Jerry or Bugs Bunny comes to mind.
Society isn't degrading, the arguers view of society is being challenged by reality. They can learn and adapt or learn and remain but either way the onus is on them to exist with society.
Yes, Ideally. Very rare though. Far easier to blame the other person for "making them feel uncomforable" and then trying to change the other person. Personal freedom is limited by what society can tolerate.
So to really clarify. In my past I have had no problem calling out heterosexual people in my friends group for outright lude behavior. Like, a slap on the ass in public and some quick innuendo that would fly past the average pre-teen unnoticed is perfectly fine. Holding hands or a plutonic peck on the cheek or lips is fine. It's the constant prolonged banter, hands in the pants, groping type of behavior that has made me uncomfortable regardless of orientation.
I went to high school at an advanced, State run, semi private institution that was located in a predominantly black neighborhood in the US south. The school was 90% black. I'm white and I quickly learned that there are times when racism went both ways. There were many taboo words and things that can't or shouldn't ever be said in such situations. I had just as many, if not more, black friends that were often willing to stand up for me when I was the minority in a larger group.
I have felt a similar type of need to avoid saying anything when it comes to open lude behavior and the LGBTQ+ community; like I can't say anything as some kind of reparation for the sins of my ancestors kind of thing. This is not something that everyone does or anything like that. It's the kind of situation where there are a couple dozen people in the group and there is that one person that wants to push everyone to their limits and beyond.
This is internally polarizing for me and I don't want to leave that unaddressed. It is an internal conflict point that slows my growth and perspective. So, does one say something, or avoid circumstances where the offending person is present? It feels like a lose:lose situation. If I say something it will likely light a fuse I'm not prepared to absorb the blast from, or I'm labeled as prejudice because of applying the same sense of morality across the board and so avoiding the person is my only option that avoids conflict. At the same time, I don't want the person to feel oppressed or ostracized.
I can only think of twice in my life that this has happened, but it is a mental wall that I never tried to address or get past. It is what polarized me in a way I didn't acknowledge as significant until now.
i generally agree with what you’ve said here, but think that you might be joining the ideas of someone who says they are uncomfortable by these things and someone who passes judgement on others for these things. while these are not mutually exclusive, i think that someone who is uncomfortable by PDA from couples of all orientations exist and should be acknowledged.
ie me. i’m a sex averse/repulsed asexual, and feel very uncomfortable by some forms of PDA (regardless of orientation) while also trying to not pass judgement on others for being someday romantic/sexual in public. i’m not trying to insert myself into anyone’s story, and i i’m not trying to make anyone conform to my internal rule book, like you’re suggesting- i just get uncomfortable when people are sexual with each other in basically any context. and i don’t think that should be shunned or degraded.