this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2023
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[–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

By definition limitless growth is impossible. It just doesn't work.

[–] bitflag@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Economic growth is an accounting measure, and so it can definitely be limitless.

[–] STUPIDVIPGUY@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] bitflag@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

No, that's literally the definition of growth (the variation of GDP from one year to the next, the GDP itself is defined as the sum of gross value added). We can make growth out of thin air if we want, it's a purely accounting metric.

I sell you a pebble for a $1000 and you sell it back to me and we created $2000 of growth without anything physically happening.

[–] STUPIDVIPGUY@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You missed the point. Everything you are describing is hypothetical. Cash and dollars are physical, but "value" and "growth" that you have described are hypothetical.

[–] bitflag@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I'm not sure what you mean by "hypothetical", these aren't hypothesis, these are their definition. And their definition means they are limitless, just as the definition of "beauty" or "numbers" make them limitless. They aren't bound by the physical world.

(also dollars are equally abstract, currencies exists as human convention, having $1 billion more in your bank account is just a few bits flipped in a database)

[–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you have infinite supply of something, it ceases to be a scarce resource with any intrinsic value. Literally nothing in the universe is infinite.

[–] bitflag@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

At the scale of mankind, the universe is effectively infinite. The sun has another billion year to go and outputs so much energy it's virtually infinite to us.

[–] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Limitless growth of what? Limitless growth of time past is inevitable for example. Wealth can grow with increased comfort, so I guess to come to maximum wealth you'd need to achieve total human fulfillment. I hope you can agree we've got a long long way to go till that.

[–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wealth can grow with increased comfort

That's just another way of saying we should just keep on doing capitalism the way we are now.

to come to maximum wealth you'd need to achieve total human fulfillment.

Happiness, or human fulfillment, whatever you want to call it isn't a state you just reach.

[–] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Exactly, that's why you can always improve, which is usually reflected in increasing wealth.

[–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

You're completely missing the point. Happiness, or whatever name you want to give it has very little to do with how much money you have.

But again, infinite growth is not a thing in a finite system. That is a fact, not an opinion.

[–] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You think money can't buy happiness? Somehow some rich people manage to still be miserable, but most poor people would be free to be much more happy with more money.

Infinite growth of what? Is infinite growth of happiness possible?

[–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

People need to meet their most basic needs, doesn't have to be through money. We've just set up society to work that way.

Capitalism in particular, is an incredibly stubborn idea that's difficult to throw away. And we've rigged the system to make it difficult (almost impossible) to give up.

Hell, the U.S. is notorious for trying to overthrow governments around the world who don't subscribe to capitalism, and the U.S. governments way of thinking.

[–] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

Oh yeah, you could distribute resources differently. Money is just very effecent at matching supply to demand. Something like a UBI could retain that while decreasing inequality inherent to the increased efficiency.