this post was submitted on 30 Dec 2023
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GenZedong
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what exactly is ur take here? this is a bad thing, its fucked up that Russia targets civilians sometimes, worse things happening elsewhere doesnt mean that this is ok or that we shouldn't care, or that we should be disrespectful of civilians dying.
this is a disturbing thing to post, as in its disturbing that ur reaction to 26 civilians being murdered in a war is to laugh at it, that is psychopath shit.
More than 26 civilians are murdered every day in Gaza (actually around 300) and Biden just went around congress to give Israel more weapons.
Hence "muh white people!" It's all about the color of the victim's skin.
The continued censorship of the fake school genocide of the Indian Residential fake Schools from 1850s to 1998 (and after 1998 in secret) compared to the Nazi Holocaust which is a cheap imitation of the Indian Residential fake schools further prove the racist hypocrisies of Western European diaspora. The Western European diaspora continued to cover their crimes against humanity by lying that the fake school holocaust with the human trafficking, child enslavement, unethical human experimentations, inheritence thief, rampart violence, rampart rapes, psychopathic tortures, and unrestrained mass murders are simple "cultural genocide" or that the reparation for war crimes are "free money".
Seems like quite a lot of people understood the context here, a site that has posted the context nonstop since October 7
I'm pretty sure it's mocking the crocodile tears of a US ambassador who is using this to call for more US "support" for Ukraine. The reality is US "support" is what has escalated the war to this point, if it weren't for ambassadors like her there'd already be a negotiated peace.
Stop spewing liberal propaganda. You'd think people here would know better by now. There is no evidence Russia deliberately targeted civilians.
We know from the past that Ukrainians deliberately park military assets near civilian infrastructure like schools, malls, etc so even if the maternity center and kindergarten aren't lies it's very likely they were hit incidentally after the Ukro-nazis used them as shields with the deliberate intent of making sure Russians killed civilians so they could sob about it.
The whole war is a bad thing. Fascists seizing power in 2014 is a bad thing, the break-up of the Soviet Union was a bad thing, etc.
But I'd like to point out that with Ukraine's "fall of Berlin" level of mass conscription, Russian soldiers firing on Ukrainian soldiers is killing people who were only recently civilians and didn't choose to be on the front lines but were kidnapped and put there with Neo-Nazi blocking units (and US supplied intelligence and overwatch) preventing them from fleeing their posts. And these are people who have for months, a year been prevented from fleeing the conflict zone by their own government desperate to keep canon fodder around by shutting the borders, thus placing them in danger. Obviously you probably wouldn't say that's as wrong as civilians being incidentally killed in missile strikes but both were chosen by the Ukrainians not the Russians who desperately, with all their might and vigor tried to find peace out of this even if it meant not getting all their goals repeatedly but were rejected in favor of being bled in an attempt to destroy and humiliate Russia and its people.
The blood of any dead Ukrainian civilians (including those pressed into uniform for use as canon fodder) is not the fault of Russia but of the US and the fascist puppet leadership in Kiev and I will continually point this out and scream about this mischaracterization which is in fact regurgitating western propaganda. The blood is entirely on their not Russian hands. In a strategy where the flailing puppet regime is demanded by it's American masters to fight to the last Ukrainian it's an unusual situation.
I feel badly for the Russian soldiers who've died and I feel badly for the Ukrainian conscripts (to a lesser degree given they watched fascism rise and did nothing or abetted it), but this happens in war against these types. A war Russia did not choose. A war they gave multiple off-ramps to. A defensive war against imperialist aggression and encroachment by swastika and SS symbol sporting fascists as the tip of the NATO spear aimed at Russia's belly.
Thats a lot of words to address things i didnt fucking say. maybe i should not have said "targets" maybe i should have said "kills" instead, but lets be clear is not like Russia wouldnt if the felt they needed to, they have targeted civilian infrastructure like the powergrid before.
A powergrid is the quintessential example of dual purpose infrastructure. Without a functioning power grid a modern military's logistics are crippled. That unfortunately makes power grids absolutely a legitimate target for destruction in a war. The fact that Russia so far has refrained from wiping out Ukraine's power grid because they are concerned about the serious consequences it would have on the civilian population is a testament to their restraint and patience.
They could easily target and disable most of Ukraine's power plants, they could leave most of Ukraine without power, without heating and without most forms of telecommunications, but so far all they did was they took out some high value electrical substations that were especially important for the rail sector. And may i remind you that Ukraine, like Russia, uses trains to transport most of its troops and equipment over longer distances.
First, there's a huge difference between targeting civilian infrastructure vs. actual civilians. Blowing up a bridge across a river in a city is not the same as indiscriminately bombing the city.
Second, there is likely no significant infrastructure that is used purely for civilian purposes. The fact that Russia hasn't destroyed any infrastructure it can reach (which is virtually everywhere in Ukraine) is evidence that they are showing at least some restraint. Contrast this with Gaza (where the Israel had to be pressured to even allow water in) or the indiscriminate bombing campaigns that everyone conducted in WWII, and the U.S. in particular conducted in Korea and Vietnam.
Sounds familiar?
this is just lazy, it's on the same level as people replacing "bourgeoisie" in communist slogans with "black people" or whatever to imply that communists and nazis sound-alike or have the same beliefs
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/
the ukrainian military does have a history of using civilian infrastructure for military purposes, there's even a recent video of them using a fucking ambulance for their meat catcher conscription scheme
hamas doesn't have a history of doing that, it's zionist propaganda
The Zionist's confession to shoot explosives across all of Gaza Strip actually make it obvious that they deliberately target civilians along with their confession that killing civilians are unavoidable in war. The photo evidences and testomonies by pro-Kyiv are full of ambiguity, self-contradiction, plot holes, and fantasy logic.
The city of Donetsk has a relative area size to the Gaza Strip, and has less than half the population. Israel has dropped 25,000 tonnes of explosives on the Gaza Strip, equivalent to two nuclear bombs. Shut the fuck up.
Almost like Hamas has legitimate grievances against invading fascist settlers as do the Russians. Almost like Hamas' situation being put in a small, very dense urban area with no choice but to fight out of it is different from the choices the Ukrainians make in where to locate their air defenses and other strategically important things. Almost like every accusation a confession from the west and their pawns.
Shameful for a user on this site to take this kind of ignorant stance. Do better.
We laugh at USA FUCKING EMBASSY writing this hypocrisy fest when their multiple wars are just mass murder shock and awe indiscrimiate bombings complete with double-tapping rescuers as if they wanted the world to see how evil they are.
I think ... maybe...
which shows their hypocrisy and favouritism, but we don't need to stoop down that low ourselves. war is horrible.
it's not "stooping" to remark that racist favoritist hypocrites are racist and favoritist (which is what the OP is doing)
No war but class war. And this aint a class war, its just innocent people being killed on both sides.
Settler talk that ignores the intersectionalities necessary for you to have your 'class war'. While you may not be wrong about innocent blood being shed, "no war but class war" is honestly just as bad to me as right-winger anti-Black dogwhistling because it says to me that the settlers and their descendants can never be put in a position of actually having to pay for all they've done. Can never be made to feel uncomfy, can never have support withheld from them due to a historically-earned lack of trust. This is not the way.
I didnt imply anything like that, and am from a colony.
The thing here is that Russia is not the soviet union anymore. Its a proto-fascist dictatorship, fighting another proto-fascist nation for their resources.
I also understand we are better off in the long run if the US loses. But we are talking about comple innocents here, we would be much better off without this war in the first place.
If Russia is that then so is every single western "liberal democracy". With the crucial difference that Russia is not a part of the imperial core, it is a semi-peripheral country and at the moment one of the main antagonists of the empire.
And while the Russian Federation is indeed a bourgeois regime, it would be un-marxist to look at the country in isolation and to close one's eyes to its position in the context of the larger global conflict between the imperial core and the periphery (or what could be called the global class struggle).
It is a fact that Russia, with its numerous internal contradictions that we as Marxists are acutely aware of, plays a pivotal role in the new multipolar world that is taking shape. They continue (if not to the same degree as their Soviet predecessors) to be involved in aiding anti-colonial struggles and helping global south countries that have found themselves in the crosshairs of the empire to defend themselves: from Syria and Iran to Mali and Burkina Faso, and even Venezuela and Nicaragua.
It is not only incorrect, it is downright lazy to blindly parrot the liberal line about Russia being a "proto-fascist dictatorship". This "neither Moscow nor Washington" type of fencesitting is not helpful and not appropriate to the current phase of global struggle that we find ourselves in.
I understand all of the things you said, but this isn't a colony fighting for its freedom. Its an empire spazzing out over resources and dare I say it here, their own greed too. Russia oppresses its citizens regardless of how we define the terminology to explain it.
As stated before I understand that a war that weakens the empire is a good thing to me, I also understand no war would be way better. Unless its a war for liberation (as in actual class war), which this is very clearly not.
For the Donbass this has been a war of national liberation since 2014.
how so?
What kind of "they go low we go high" bullshit is this? ๐คฃ
I'm not for the killings of innocent civilians, is all. This is mostly a fight between the oligarchs involved. I'm sure most actual ukrainians are fine, as most russians.
Mmmmmmmm that's highly dependent. I follow the axiom of "where one nazi sits at a table with a dozen people, if the people there stay seated, there's now thirteen nazis in the room". I never saw any meaningful attempt to get away from that table from large swathes of Ukranian civilians save the ones that actually deserted.
a better axiom is "could i apply the responsibility i'm expecting of civilians to children" fuck are ukrainian kids supposed to do about nazis in government? the disabled? pensioners?
and the ukrainian opposition parties that were banned & leaders jailed/disappeared---they aren't evidence ukrainians aren't all fash?
I was under the impression most nazis were on the military. My country is mostly the same and as much as I hate them theres not much we can do about them rn. I think a similar situation applies to the rest of them outside the armies and police.
I don't sit at the table with them but they are out there still, regardless of how the rest of the working class thinks of them and most of us just need our next paycheck.
If Russia was targeting civilians there would be a lot more civilian casualties. Russia fired over a hundred missiles and who knows how many more drones, and even according to the numbers put out by the Ukrainian authorities which are highly untrustworthy they have killed less than "Israel" does with a single bomb. And it's not because Russia is bad at killing, it's because unlike the Ziofash they are not trying to mass murder civilians
Just a cursory glance at the total civilian casualties over the course of this entire conflict shows that Russia has gone out of its way to avoid harming civilians whenever possible. In no other modern conflict has the ratio of civilian to military casualties been this low. This is just an objective fact, look it up. And a hell of a lot of those civilian casualties have been people in the Russian annexed territories, in frontline cities which are still being regularly shelled by Ukraine, most of the time for no apparent reason other than to terrorize the population.
Nobody here is laughing, this entire war is a tragedy that didn't need to happen. These civilian casualties are also highly tragic, all the more so since many of them are likely due to Ukrainian AD missiles missing and hitting residential areas. We have had ample video of such misfires in the past, but none of actual Russian strikes being purposely aimed at civilian targets except on the very rare occasion when there was undeniable evidence of concentration of high value military assets there.
And before any dumbass even tries to draw some asinine and morally bankrupt comparison to what is happening in Gaza, may i remind you that Ukraine's territory is over ten thousand times the size of Gaza. They have plenty of empty fields and forests to park their equipment in - they don't need to be putting their military assets inside cities right next to or sometimes inside civilian objects! For the Kiev regime that is a choice; a deliberate one.
What the Zionist propagandists falsely accuse Hamas of doing is what the AFU is actually doing: using human shields and then cynically using their deaths regardless which side was responsible for them for propaganda purposes.
I am not saying Ukrainian should die but it's the audacity of a US ambassador to post about Ukraine and not Gaza
there are better way to point out the hypocrisy, this aint it.
Really should've worded the title better then
I like chaos and such...
Y u do dis?
21 Russian civilians killed from just 1 Ukraine attack in Belgorod after this. You can draw the comparisons to the results 158 missiles Russia did.
that has nothing to do with it, its still bad that those people died and we shouldn't be making jokes about it. its fucked up that ur respose to someone saying that civilians dying is bad and we shouldnt laugh at it is to point out that more civilians died elsewhere, what is wrong with u.
My post is about "Russia targets civilians" point in yours. I don't laugh at it either, even as I understand it's the case of