this post was submitted on 14 Jan 2024
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[–] QueerCommie@hexbear.net 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

This assumes that noone is violent under conditions of abundance, which is false

where did I say that? On the subject Lenin (in state and rev) says this:

spoiler

Lastly, only communism makes the state absolutely unnecessary, for there is nobody to be suppressed--“nobody” in the sense of a class, of a systematic struggle against a definite section of the population. We are not utopians, and do not in the least deny the possibility and inevitability of excesses on the part of individual persons, or the need to stop such excesses. In the first place, however, no special machine, no special apparatus of suppression, is needed for this: this will be done by the armed people themselves, as simply and as readily as any crowd of civilized people, even in modern society, interferes to put a stop to a scuffle or to prevent a woman from being assaulted. And, secondly, we know that the fundamental social cause of excesses, which consist in the violation of the rules of social intercourse, is the exploitation of the people, their want and their poverty. With the removal of this chief cause, excesses will inevitably begin to "wither away". We do not know how quickly and in what succession, but we do know they will wither away. With their withering away the state will also wither away.

There's every reason to believe that, because it's happened thousands of times over already. Human history started as roughly socialist tribes, who were intra-socialist, but inter-oppressive.

Again, there's a difference between a scarce world in which agriculture can produce new surpluses and create the possibility of private property, and one where scarcity has been surpassed.

if you achieve utopian global abundance, and then dismantle the state that achieved it, it is certain that the world will devolve again into what it is now.

Why? This is just the regular pessimistic overused human nature argument. Lenin also addresses the false claim that we seek to introduce Communism and abolish the state at one stroke. This is what the anarchists want to do, not us.

spoiler

The state will be able to wither away completely when society adopts the rule: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", i.e., when people have become so accustomed to observing the fundamental rules of social intercourse and when their labor has become so productive that they will voluntarily work according to their ability. "The narrow horizon of bourgeois law", which compels one to calculate with the heartlessness of a Shylock whether one has not worked half an hour more than anybody else--this narrow horizon will then be left behind. There will then be no need for society, in distributing the products, to regulate the quantity to be received by each; each will take freely "according to his needs".

From the bourgeois point of view, it is easy to declare that such a social order is "sheer utopia" and to sneer at the socialists for promising everyone the right to receive from society, without any control over the labor of the individual citizen, any quantity of truffles, cars, pianos, etc. Even to this day, most bourgeois “savants” confine themselves to sneering in this way, thereby betraying both their ignorance and their selfish defence of capitalism.

Ignorance--for it has never entered the head of any socialist to “promise” that the higher phase of the development of communism will arrive; as for the greatest socialists' forecast that it will arrive, it presupposes not the present ordinary run of people, who, like the seminary students in Pomyalovsky's stories,[2] are capable of damaging the stocks of public wealth "just for fun", and of demanding the impossible.

Until the “higher” phase of communism arrives, the socialists demand the strictest control by society and by the state over the measure of labor and the measure of consumption; but this control must start with the expropriation of the capitalists, with the establishment of workers' control over the capitalists, and must be exercised not by a state of bureaucrats, but by a state of armed workers.

The selfish defence of capitalism by the bourgeois ideologists (and their hangers-on, like the Tseretelis, Chernovs, and Co.) consists in that they substitute arguing and talk about the distant future for the vital and burning question of present-day politics, namely, the expropriation of the capitalists, the conversion of all citizens into workers and other employees of one huge “syndicate”--the whole state--and the complete subordination of the entire work of this syndicate to a genuinely democratic state, the state of the Soviets of Workers' and Soldiers' Deputies.

In fact, when a learned professor, followed by the philistine, followed in turn by the Tseretelis and Chernovs, talks of wild utopias, of the demagogic promises of the Bolsheviks, of the impossibility of “introducing” socialism, it is the higher stage, or phase, of communism he has in mind, which no one has ever promised or even thought to “introduce”, because, generally speaking, it cannot be “introduced”.

-VI Ulyanov, State and Revolution

Even if everyone has their physical needs met, certain people want more power and control, and they'll figure out a way to "oppress their own people" to gain control of a larger amount of resources than the others, and then it's history.

Your issue is with the Anarchists, not the socialists. We do not seek to abolish the state, but to protractedly abolish classes resulting in the governing apparatus to be purely administrative and not a tool of oppression of anyone.

[–] Hello_Kitty_enjoyer@hexbear.net 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Your position is that once utopian abundance is achieved, that almost nobody will create conflict anymore bc they are satisfied by their material conditions--and that the few people who do, will be dealt with by the masses.

I reject that position, because such a self-interested individual can easily hide their motivations and trick the masses.

However, even if I were to accept your position that such a selfish individual is SOLELY the result of material conditions, and thus that they wouldn't even exist under socialism--your position still doesn't work because all it takes is a natural disaster for the system to be thrown out of whack.

Disturbances in weather can ONLY be absorbed properly if the entire system is managed by an authority--a state. Else it just devolves into what we have now. A tornado ruins the crop somewhere, now migration, now conflict, now inequality, and it's all downhill

In the presence of a state, this is a trivial-ass problem. You just take some extra from someone with a bumper crop. (Not being super highly populated also helps with this even more)

Your issue is with the Anarchists, not the socialists.

I never said I wasn't socialist. My issue was with this comment way up the chain:

Anarchists imagine a revolution that immediately jumps to a stateless society, and Marxists have concluded that it is necessary to seize state power to defeat the forces of reaction, and that the state can be dismantled only once imperialism and capitalism have been defeated on a global scale.

I diverge from this because I don't think the state can ever be completely dismantled if you want a socialist system to continue. I think that a stateless society cannot be socialist forever. A state-run society could be.

[–] QueerCommie@hexbear.net 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You aren't listening. I never said anything would be dismantled. All I said is that once classes are gone it would cease to be a state. There will continue to be planning, governing, and an administative apparatus. There will just not need to be violence. Communism does not mean an end to authority.

[–] Hello_Kitty_enjoyer@hexbear.net 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

There will continue to be planning, governing, and an administative apparatus.

Then there would be a state.

[–] QueerCommie@hexbear.net 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You don't understand the Marxist definition of a state. https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/State Please read Lenin.

[–] Hello_Kitty_enjoyer@hexbear.net 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

In Marxism, the state apparatus, more commonly known as simply the state, is a system by which the ruling class maintains and perpetuates its dominance within the social formation. It functions by subjugating the other class(es) within class society,[1][2] and reproducing ruling class ideology.[3]

What am I missing here? You cannot "plan govern and administrate" a society if you do not have dominance over the society. Just because the state is benevolent and fair and maintains socialism doesn't mean it's not a state.

[–] QueerCommie@hexbear.net 1 points 10 months ago

? It’s literally in the quote. A state is an apparatus of oppression by the ruling class. We want to be the ruling class, but our ultimate goal is the abolition of class society. When there are no classes there shall be no state. Administration and government can exist without a state.