this post was submitted on 26 Jul 2024
90 points (88.8% liked)

Ask Lemmy

26890 readers
1823 users here now

A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions

Please don't post about US Politics. If you need to do this, try !politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world


Rules: (interactive)


1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them


2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?


3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.


4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either !asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world or !asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com. NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].


5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.


Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.

Partnered Communities:

Tech Support

No Stupid Questions

You Should Know

Reddit

Jokes

Ask Ouija


Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

What do you think?

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] rowinxavier@lemmy.world 15 points 3 months ago (4 children)

No, but that is because they don't have language.

That said, plenty of humans do not have a voiced internal experience. The lack of language does not imply a lack of cognition. I would expect that the brain of a closely related organism, say a chimp, would have many similar experiences generated by the same stimuli. Would they experience green like I experience green? I can't even say that about a person sitting next to me, but they probably have an equivalent experience.

That said, if we had a way of communicating could we reach agreed terms? I can do that with my cat, so I would think he has an understanding of me and my behaviours along with what tends to happen when I do certain things like clap then shake my hands at the end of a treat session. He knows there are no more treats, he associates that with my hands clapping and shaking, so we communicate. Does he have a voice in his head describing it? Probably not. Does he have Meows? Again, probably not, but he would have a sense and memories of previous times.

[–] FrostyCaveman@lemm.ee 5 points 3 months ago

Does he have Meows?

That’s such a cute and funny thing to imagine lol. An inner meowologue

[–] treefrog@lemm.ee 1 points 3 months ago

Some animals do have language and animals that are around people a lot likely have an inner voice that is their owner's voice.

They likely don't plan using this voice, the way people do. But it certainly influences their behavior.

A dog that's been yelled at for getting in the garbage might hear a no in their head even if their owners at work.

[–] noxy@yiffit.net 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

they don't have language

Have you never seen a dog wag their tail or play bow?

Have you never seen a squirrel twitching their tail at another squirrel who's encroached on their territory?

Have you never encountered any media about whale songs?

All kinds of animals have all kinds of language.

[–] rowinxavier@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I meant to say language in the linguistics sense, a series of abstract items which can be arranged to convey arbitrary meaning. For example, a dog barking can be a threat display, a warning, playful, sad, afraid, and so on. But can you use barking to create grammar? With grammar you could have labels for items in the world and use various barks to refer to them, make requests, ask questions, and so on. Some types of animals have warning calls that are specific to types of predators, for example an eagle call or a leopard call. Leopards require different responses than eagles so the distinction is very useful and helps others to respond. This is not quite language but is definitely a step in the right direction.

So yes, you are correct, lots of animals can communicate things to each other, but it is not the same as language like what humans have. Could we find an animal that does have language? Or something very close? Sure, but we haven't shown that yet. Maybe we should focus on giving other animals a chance to develop before we wipe them all out.

[–] noxy@yiffit.net 1 points 3 months ago

but it is not the same as language like what humans have

And it doesn't have to be. In fact this sort of thinking can limit how we learn about other animals.

Dogs don't pass the mirror test for self awareness like some corvids and a few other animals do. But dogs don't experience each other primarily through vision, scent is much more their main sense. So is that even a valid test for canid self awareness?

[–] Thorny_Insight@lemm.ee -1 points 3 months ago (2 children)

This is something I've always been highly skeptical of. As a somewhat experienced meditator, I'm hyper-aware of the constant flood of self-talk happening in my head, but I don't remember paying particular attention to it before I started practicing. It has always been there, but until then, I hadn't paid any special attention to it. Whenever this subject comes up with people who don't meditate, they often seem to live under the illusion that, except for intentional thoughts, their mind is more or less silent the rest of the time. I'd argue that 99.9% of people couldn't sit for 20 seconds without letting their mind wander, even if their life depended on it. Even I couldn't, despite my experience in meditation.

That's why I think that when people are asked whether they have this inner voice or not, some say no because they're not aware of it. Not having it would effectively be synonymous with being enlightened.

[–] rowinxavier@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago

I have internal voice sometimes but not others. In some things my cognition is far more verbal, working through something like a monologue or conversation. Other times I may have more of a mental image of something, sometimes more in real space and sometimes completely disconnected from real space. Sometimes it is much more abstract with sensations and emotions with very little in terms of concrete metaphores.

Also I can have racing thoughts without it being language. I also have impacts on those racing thoughts from taking Ritalin (ADHD medication) and it is not just the word thoughts but also the flow of other types of cognition.

[–] treefrog@lemm.ee 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Also an experienced meditator.

Not everyone thinks in words. Some people think in pictures. Or in other sense consciousnesses. As an experienced cook, I can think in taste and smell without any auditory component of 'what should I put in this dish'. For example.

As for word thinking, passive thoughts are more auditory and active thoughts more somatic (throat and jaw muscles will move). These can be decoupled from the sense of I making, especially passive thoughts.

At which point you get thoughts think themselves, to quote Jack Kornfield. A sort of bubbling up of passive thoughts in voices that aren't mine.

It's likely animals that live close to people experience this. The owners voice yelling no when they do something the owner wouldn't like, even if the owner isn't around.

Anyway, trying to not think can be like holding your breath. I can do that for awhile. But it's not right effort. Letting thoughts settle, like sand in a glass of water. And letting go of the sense of I making. The mind will rest quite naturally. That's calm abiding.

In other words, it's attachment to the inner voice that's making it difficult for you to imagine that a lot of people think in pictures or other ways. And noticing this sense of attachment in your practice with the intention of letting it go, might deepen your insight into yourself and what others may or may not experience.

Edit: this listening meditation is helpful for me in letting go of attachment to the inner voice. As is annapanasati, especially the third tetrad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OW9LNSVjPo