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Yet another one of China's elite has disappeared after criticizing Xi Jinping
(www.businessinsider.com)
this post was submitted on 24 Sep 2024
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Do show me where Marx said that the path to communism is eliminating private property and the ability to accrue capital and then bringing it back again.
From Wikipedia article on Mensheviks: (you've been talking to someone else in the comments)
So yes, mate, there are literal historical figures of communism debating this exact same issue that you find so laughable, it's literally the raison d'etre of the word Bolshevism. There is no specific "Marx passage" as if it was the bible, where it says "in case some fella called Mao organizes a socialist revolution in a peasant agrarian society, pls pull it back to capitalism first, and then go to socialism once it's capitalist, ok?" If you generally read Marx, you can see how he puts socialism as the necessary and logical end of capitalism, as something inevitable that will happen because capitalism will bring forward the material conditions for the revolution. But despite that, Marx also was a highly politically involved individual, who pushed forward momentously the socialist movement in Europe together with Engels.
Marx isn't a gospel that you're supposed to be able to chant and have undying faith for, it's an analysis of reality that you can agree or disagree with, which explains the existence of different flavours of communism such as menshevism and bolshevism or such as Maoism and Dengism, which can be explained by the material and historical conditions leading up to those moments. Marx himself said that Marxism has to be constantly interpreting the reality of the moment and critically adapting everything. So if you're looking for a direct quote from Marx about Dengism or Menshevism, I'm not here to provide that, I'm here to tell you that the definition you consider stupid has been hotly debated for a hundred fucking years, so maybe it's not so stupid.
And yet they never said you would go from a position of socialism where the earning of capital was eliminated to a pretty much entirely capitalist country and then somehow reach communism.
Because that makes no sense.
And you and everyone else arguing for this are ignoring that.
Socialism with Chinese characteristics is just taking cues from the popular sport of ping-pong.
I'm honestly waiting for something like that. It's so fucking weird to think that dawn has to keep getting darker for the sun to rise.
A few more rounds of Great Leaps Forward followed by ultracapitalism will definitely result in our dictatorship of the proletariat almost being ready to dissolve. We just need to run the cycle a few times until our noble and selfless elites decide it's time to surrender power.
My brother in Christ, Mensheviks and Dengists were against the consolidation of centralised socialist economy before the historical consolidation of capital in the hands of the bourgeoisie, the difference being that Menshevism died off and Dengism ended up taking the lead after Maoism. The restoration of capital is simply a consequence of Dengism taking over AFTER Maoism, not because Dengists believed there should be first Maoism and then Dengism.
Cool. How many billionaires does China get to have before they get rid of them and go to communism? Because it currently stands at over 800 according to my searching. When will their billions be distributed to the masses rather than to their children?
For the last time, I'm not the ultimate supporter of themselves Chinese model of Communism, now that I've shown you that your position stems from being uneducated about socialism, its meaning, and its history, you resort to "how many gazillionaires" because you're not trying to have a civilised discussion. You have a preconceived notion that "China isn't communism", which is fine, so do I, but when confronted with the discrepancies within the communist movement and how there are legitimate arguments to call it socialist and on the way to communism, you just spout your initial position again with stronger words. I'll tell you what I said at the beginning: I don't care whether it's communist or not, but you saying "hurr durr no socialism if billionaires" is a shitty argument from ignorance.
Accuse me of whatever you like. The fact is that China is becoming ever-more capitalist and suggesting that is the path to communism is silly unless you can explain things like how to distribute a severely unequal amount of wealth.
In his theory of Historical Materialism. Mao and the later Gang of Four succeeded in broadly eliminating private property, but had done so without developing the Means of Production adequately, resulting in economic stagnation. The people were poor, they had tried to leapfrog development to Communism in an idealist, Utopian manner, which was a rejection of the Historical Materialist idea that the next Mode of Production emerges from the previous.
Communism requires a certain level of industrial development that the PRC did not have, and for that reason the Cultural Revolution was in many ways highly damaging.
Would you have had the PRC uphold the Gang of Four's dogmatic, anti-Marxist line simply because China had largely abolished Private Property? Is it better for the proletarist to be poor under Socialism, or rich under Capitalism?
Yes, you can claim that. I asked you to show me where. At the very least a reference to where he says it, but you could quote him. I don't see why you think I should just trust your interpretation.
Also, I am not making a value judgment about communism. Do not try to twist what I am saying into an argument against communism, because you are starting to look like you're here in bad faith.
Marx hadn't lived in a time where there was a society that tried to jump to Communism immediately without developing the Means of Production first, so the closest we can get is his critique of Anarchism. Critique of the Gotha Programme also provides perspective on the transition to Communism:
However, I encourage you to read Marx for yourself. You shouldn't "trust" my interpretation, you should dive into Marxism if you wish to critique Marxists along Marxist lines. You can critique as a non-Marxist, that's perfectly valid, but trying to critique as a Marxist without a solid understanding of Marxism isn't good-faith in my opinion.
I am not trying to say that you're making a value judgement. My argument is that, as a Marxist-Leninist that has read no fewer than 2 dozen books by Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, Parenti, Politzer, and other Marxist writers, it is evident to me that your understanding of Historical and Dialectical Materialism is lacking, and that clouds your judgement when you critique using Marxist analysis.
Don't worry, ML theorists like Stalin take precedence over Marx, like how the New Testament takes precedence over the Old. It's basic theology.
Oh believe me, I know. They don't care about what Marx actually said.
Frankly, Marx strikes me more as an anarchist than a communist, at least insofar as those labels are used today. I suspect he'd find tankies repellent.
The end goal of Marxism is Communism, which is anarchist by a strict definition. There are quibbles between traditional Marxists and anarchists on how to get there - with Marxists typically taking a "We need to take over the state first" approach and anarchists going for "Dismantling/bypassing the state is literally step 1" approach. Tankies, of course, mock 'anarkiddies' without the slightest hint of what the end state of Communism is, because they love slobbering on authoritarian boots.
Marx railed against Anarchists for his entire life, what gives you the impression that he would be an Anarchist today?
I won't be able to explain this very well, but I think I'd frame it as an Overton Window thing. Marx railed against anarchists because tankies didn't exist yet. If he were around today (and still held his 19th c. views) I suspect that on the spectrum of leftism, he'd find himself closer to anarchists than to tankies, i.e. his dislike of centralized authoritarianism would far outweigh his comparatively minor beefs with anarchists.
Marx railed against Anarchists because he was in favor of centralization, and believed in Scientific Socialism, rather than Utopian. He believed Socialism to be a stage in development of class society, one that emerges from Capitalism, and not something that can be established outright simply by coming up with a model and spontaneously adopting it. Marx didn't base his views on any such "Overton Window," he would find the concept of that ridiculous.
Why do you say Marx disliked "centralized authoritarianism?" He advocated for the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, ie a democratic, centralized state, that would wither from a tool to oppress and suppress the bourgeoisie into an administration of things as global Communism is achieved. Critique of the Gotha Programme makes this expressly clear, Marx was in favor of centralization and against decentralization and Anarchism.
As for "authoritarianism," he and Engels were often accused of it, to the point that Engels wrote about the issues with said slander in On Authority.
That isn't my reading of him at all. He seems to me to advocate for "bottom-up" structures rather than the opposite, as tankies do. You just alluded to it yourself with his vision of an emergent system rather than something designed and imposed. The latter is what current-day communists believe, and as you just said, that doesn't align with Marx.
I also didn't say he based his views on an Overton Window at all. I said current-day communists have distorted communism so far beyond anything Marx would recognize that the Overton Window on what is considered communism has shifted far towards the authoritarian side.
Can you elaborate? What "bottom-up" structures did he advocate for, and how, mechanically, do they differ from what modern Communists advocate for?
When I say emerge, I mean it literally. Capitalism emerged from within feudalism with the advent of the steam engine, which allowed for industrialization and mass competition. When Marx advocates for Socialism, he does so on the basis of the Proletariat wresting control from the bourgeoisie via revolution, and maintaining absolute control via the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, just as the bourgeoisie and proletariat together wrested control from the Monarchies.
What have you read from Marx that gives you an alternate impression? Where are you getting the idea that Marx was in favor of decentralization over centralization, when he says the direct opposite clear as day in Critique of the Gotha Programme?
He constantly frames things vis-a-vis the freedom of workers and their having input in their government. Does that sound like China to you, or Cambodia under the Khmer?
Sure, but what he didn't advocate for is for a new form of aristocracy to emerge from within workers' ranks. I think this was Bakunin, not Marx, but the dangers of "labour aristocracy" were already known at the time.
I've read David Harvey's synopsis of Capital (because life is too short to read the whole thing), Gotha, and of course the Manifesto. I'm actually puzzled that you see Gotha as advocating for authoritarianism. He talks about the eradication of class and about how people should not be "ruled". Both of those things are endemic to current-day communism. I just can't imagine that Marx would look at the way the CCP operates and think that was an accurate reflection of his personal politics.
How, exactly, does he frame them? Can you give an example? China practices Whole Process People's Democracy, which absolutely isn't liberal democracy, but does have more worker participation than Capitalist states.
As for Cambodia, the Khmer denounced Marx and were stopped by the Vietnamese Communists, no Communist supports the Khmer Rouge. No, what Marx described was not adopted by Cambodia, because the Khmer Rouge denounced Marx.
You're confused on a few things here, the Labor Aristocracy is the Proletariat that makes more than the median wages in the global context due to the impacts of Imperialism, ie in the US median Proletarian wages far exceed that of wages in Chad not because the US Proletariat magically creates more value, but because wages are higher due to vast exploitation of the Global South.
Secondly, there was not a "new form of aristocracy" in AES states. AES presented an increase in democratization, including practices like instant recall elections, and units electing delegates. These delegates weren't hereditary, had to be elected, and could be recalled at any time.
Critique of the Gotha Programme isn't advocating for "authoritarianism," nobody does. Critique of the Gotha Programme advocates for centralization, also alluded to by the "ceasing of the anarchy of Capitalist production." Marx clearly crituques the vagueness of the Gotha Programme in question, along with its flawed conception of the state.
Engels elaborates in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific (itself a phenomenal work that I highly recommend reading after this conversation), what form of government a Communist society would look like as Marx alludes to in Gotha:
You can see that, rather than the anarchy of decentralization, Marx and Engels advocated for centralization. The "centralized" society has no State, but it does have an Administration of Things. Think the Post-Office, and how it still has managers and administrators. These structures remain even into Communism, after Socialism, yet they aren't considered a "state" by Marx nor Engels.
I won't reply to all that because you've either moved the goalposts or misunderstood my original point. To wit:
Tankies are quintessentially authoritarian. That's what I've been saying since the beginning. I agree that Marx doesn't advocate for it, which is why I suggested he'd be repelled by tankies.
And what is authoritarianism? What are tankies?
For this to be a fruitful discussion, you two have to agree on what the definition of things are
Exactly. I think that's why we're having difficulty communicating.
How can you say that without responding? It seems like you ignored what I wrote, with careful, direct references to Marx and Engels. If I am going to put in the effort of taking everything you said into consideration and responding to the best of my abilities, the least you can do is acknowledge it honestly, not dissavow my efforts entirely. I haven't undermined your ability to understand what I am talking about, nor accused you of moving the goal posts, so I'd like respect in kind.
You've been saying this without qualifiers. Advocating for "authoritarianism" isn't a thing, hence Engels writing On Authority to debunk the very subject entirely. You have yet to meaningfully prove that Communists advocate for a different system and a different process than what Marx and Engels did. Saying that Communists advocate for "authoritarianism" doesn't mean anything, what structures do Communists advocate for that go against Marx?
I can't parse what you're trying to say here. I suspect we're talking past each other because you're arguing from a purely academic point of view, rather than taking actual self-proclaimed communist states into account. Do you believe China is communist? How about the USSR?
I'm arguing for academic analysis of self-proclaimed Marxists.
China is Socialist. It practices Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, maintaining a Dictatorship of the Proletariat over a Market Economy. The CPC is Communist by ideology, but of course they haven't achieved Communism yet, nor do they claim to. They tried to directly implement Communism under Mao and later under the Gang of Four, which ended up being a critical error in judgement as the Means of Production were not at all developed enough for it, hence the Gang of Four claiming it was "better for the Proletariat to be poor under Socialism than rich under Capitalism."
The USSR was Socialist. They never achieved Communism, largely due to refusing to interlock with the rest of the world economy. While they managed to provide many critical necessities like healthcare, education, and so forth for free, shutting out the global market led to consumer jealousy over consumer commodities from the west, which led to democratically instating liberal market reforms, which worked against the centralized nature of the economy, leading to its dissolution.
So your stance is essentially "real communism has never been tried"? Technically correct, I suppose, but what really matters is the actions of people who claim to be communists. I refer back to my first post in this conversation where I said "insofar as those labels are used today". I can't think of a single practical implementation of political systems by these self-proclaimed communists that makes me think "this is what Marx would have wanted".
No, his stance is that Communism, or as I believe Marx called it upper stage communism, has not been achieved. Lower stage communism‒or socialism‒has, as seen in China and the USSR. Both of these are/were communist, as in they are/were led by Marxist/communist parties working towards Communism.
If you truly believe they are "working towards communism", I don't think any amount of evidence or differing interpretations of the data will sway your faith.
No. My stance is that Communism is a stage of development that comes after Socialism, and no existing Socialist society has yet made it to Communism. This is the standard Marxist view of societal development, you cannot adopt Communism through fiat. The CPC tried under Mao and the Gang of Four, and failed because they didn't develop the Means of Production beforehand.
Then I suggest you explain why. I have offered context and analysis of the USSR and PRC as they directly relate to Marx and Engels, without needing to reference Lenin or other Marxists. I would say my number one reading recommendation, if you don't feel like elaborating on why you believe AES states to be not "Marx approved," would be Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti. Additionally, the previously linked Socialism: Utopian and Scientific is critical for understanding the Marxist theory of development via Dialectical and Historical Materialism.
Because they are profoundly authoritarian, and become more so over time. You're posting in a thread about China's leader erasing a contrary voice from existence. I'm not sure how much clearer this could all be.
I have asked, repeatedly, for mechanical analysis. Any change in structure, drop in approval rates, anything. Simply saying "the vibes they give off are scary and the vibes have been getting stronger over time" is not mechanical analysis.
You'll forgive me for taking the nuances of a Business Insider article with respect to a Socialist country with a grain of salt. Western sources often call firing officials "disappearing" them, because they are intentionally doing Red Scare propaganda. You'll note that if you read the article, it's relatively light on facts and hard evidence, and tries to link phenomena without hard basis.
You'll also notice that the near identical story, down to the format, has been posted to other western media outlets like WSJ, in light of the US approving billions of dollars to discredit the PRC.
This is why I am asking for hard, mechanical analysis.
This is rapidly devolving into bad-faith pedantry, but fine. I would point to the horrifically botched early response to COVID; ongoing suppression of protests on June 4th of every year; the crushing of dissent in Hong Kong; Xi's very public sidelining of Hu; the ongoing genocide in Xinjiang; mass surveillance; Xi's undoing of term limits; and the list goes on, but that should be enough to tide you over for now.
No it isn't.
Cowbee has asked multiple times for you to expand upon what you stated such that it can be engaged with. Much of what you have stated is vibes, it doesn't contain any specifics. You feel that Marx would have been this way, you feel that china is authoritarian, none of it engages with reality, none of it contains any sources. If asking for this is bad-faith pedantry, then no discussion can be had.
You have clearly never been to China. Bye.
Yea I haven't. But it changes none of what I have said.
As always, it ends like this.
Is it bad-faith to ask for examples and critique instead of vibes? I have given analysis and referenced Marx and Engels directly, as well as linked Wikipedia articles so you know how the PRC operates democratically. I find it fairly insulting to call it bad-faith pedantry to ask for similar in return, if you're going to take a definitive stance.
Do you have any links at all? What was botched about the COVID response, did another country do it better? This is a firehose of vague statements, the closest of which to an actual point being the abolition of term limits, but you don't explain how you think that goes against democratic control and operation. You just kind of shot-gunned blanket statements without giving any of them any kind of attention or analysis.
Perhaps I should have used the term "sealioning" instead of bad-faith pedantry. When you come at people with trite gems like this one,
you make it very difficult for others to believe you're interested in a genuine conversation rather that endlessly bogging down your interlocutor with minutiae and winning a war of attrition. Here's a hard source for you. Enjoy, because I've finished wasting my time here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
I can quote Wikipedia articles too. When you intentionally gish gallop to the point of saying it should "keep me busy for a while," you essentially shut the conversation down there and then. Me asking you to refocus and have an actual conversation based on specifics, as I have been doing the entire time, is not sealioning, incorrectly applying a fallacy is false logic itself.
At that point, just say "disengage" or say you don't want to have a conversation, without trying to get a jab in to justify why. That's your right to disengage, you don't owe me a response, but I'd appreciate the respect I've given you returned to me.