this post was submitted on 14 Jan 2025
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[–] booly@sh.itjust.works 85 points 3 days ago (8 children)

Cultural appropriation is a broad enough term to functionally be meaningless, but I've found it helpful to think through 4 distinct interests at play, that I think are legitimate:

Proper attribution/credit. We don't like plagiarism or unattributed copying in most art. Remixes, homages, reinterpretations, and even satire/parody are acceptable but we expect proper treatment of the original author and the original work. Some accusations of cultural appropriation take on this flavor, where there's a perceived unfairness in how the originator of an idea is ignored and some copier is given credit. For a real world example of this, think of the times the fans of a particular musical artist get annoyed when a cover of one of that artist's song becomes bigger than the original.

Proper labeling/consumer disclosure/trademark. Some people don't like taking an established name and applying it outside of that original context. European nations can be pretty aggressive at preserving the names of certain wines (champagne versus sparkling wine) or cheeses (parmigiano reggiano versus parmesan) or other products. American producers are less aggressive about those types of geographic protected labels but have a much more aggressive system of trademarks generally: Coca Cola, Nike, Starbucks. In a sense, there's literal ownership of a name and the owner should be entitled to decide what does or doesn't get the label.

Cheapening of something special or disrespect for something sacred. For certain types of ceremonial clothing, wearing that clothing outside of the context of that ceremony seems disrespectful. Military types sometimes get offended by stolen valor when people wear ranks/ribbons/uniforms they haven't personally earned, and want to gatekeep who gets to wear those things. In Wedding Crashers there's a scene where Will Ferrell puts on a fake purple heart to try to get laid, and it's widely understood by the audience to be a scummy move. Or, one could imagine the backlash if someone were to host some kind of drinking contest styled after some Christian communion rituals, complete with a host wearing stuff that looks like clergy attire.

Mockery of a group. Blackface, fake accents, and things of that nature are often in bad taste when used to mock people. It's hard to pull this off without a lot of people catching strays, so it's best to just avoid these practices. With costumes in general, there are things to look out for, especially if you're going out and getting smashed.

[–] Trainguyrom@reddthat.com 14 points 3 days ago (3 children)

This is probably the best most level-headed and respectful take I've seen regarding cultural appropriation. Thank you!

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[–] lovely_reader@lemmy.world 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I might suggest a fifth item for your list, which has to do with whether you, as a non-minority, are appropriating something that a minority has been given a hard time for. For instance, a number of Black hairstyles have been denigrated for generations, leading to people having to deal with damaging, toxic, expensive, time consuming chemical treatments to achieve more culturally acceptable hair. So when non-minority people wear cornrows or dreadlocks to be trendy, especially while Black people are still being made to feel uncomfortable (or being discriminated against) for wearing the same styles, that can sting in a different way. This isn't limited to cultural characteristics, but it's a sensitive aspect of appropriation that includes cultural stuff.

[–] Tudsamfa@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I take issue with this.

Main point being that, no matter how respectful the appropriating individual is, they are now being judged for actions that they themselves may have never taken.

Secondary point, and I know this is a nitpick, you say "minority" and "non-minority", but those terms can always flip when you change view points. I doubt you would give white people from African Countries a pass on their cornrows for being minorities in their country, and if you did, what if they move to the US?

I think people should be free to enjoy whatever hairstyle no matter the actions of unrelated other people. But what do I know, I'm just a person from a culture nobody wants to appropriate anyway.

[–] lovely_reader@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I respect your opinion. I do want to clarify that if, let's say, a white German living in Ghana were broadly discriminated against or mocked for wearing lederhosen (I won't pretend to be able to think of an up-to-date cultural tradition specifically associated with white people, please bear with), then it would be hurtful for their Ghanaian neighbors to start "discovering" lederhosen-inspired fashions while denying the impacts of the ill treatment endured by these oppressed German transplants. It's not about race or hairstyles, but mistreatment at the hands of people who (usually) don't recognize the power or perceived power inherent to their social position.

I will give some more thought to your comment about white people from African countries. My initial reaction is that cornrows may or may not be part of their own culture, and they may not be living in a context where white people have the social power to harm or harass other Africans on a racial basis. If we're talking about South Africa, of course, that's not the case, so it still seems like it comes down to who's in control. But I will reflect on it. Thanks.

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[–] SuperSaiyanSwag@lemmy.zip 29 points 2 days ago (13 children)

I don’t think it’s offensive, but if you’re wearing that just to make a point then maybe you’re just looking to offend people. This is less directed to the comic and more directed to the YouTube clips I have seen of similar scenario.

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[–] aeronmelon@lemmy.world 189 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Snowflakes: "It is offensive for a westerner to wear a Japanese kimono. You are not Japanese!"

Native Japanese: "We insist you wear this kimono so you feel like part of the group."

Based on a true story.

[–] LandedGentry@lemmy.zip 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

When you deprive examples of context you do a disservice to the point.

If a Japanese person asks you explicitly to wear a kimono, then yes of course you wear a kimono. There isn’t a progressive/leftist/etc. in the world who would disagree with that.

Edit: Also who non-ironically uses the term “snowflake”? Very lame and predictable

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 67 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (7 children)

Using "cultural appropriation" to drag down regular people is kind of pointless, like freaking out at someone for putting the wrong recyclable type of plastic trash in the garbage.

Cultural appropriation matters at the corporate level, where media shapes what regular people do. Do you want to talk about cultural appropriation? Talk about Disney, talk about Hollywood, talk about Jeep Cherokee, and Decathlon Quechua. To keep with the recycling analogy: your problem shouldn't be ordinary people messing up their trash sorting, it should be vendors mass producing plastic trash for everything.

[–] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

Indeed. The author of the comic misrepresents it as appreciating another culture. But really it is intentionally misrepresenting or stealing a culture. Like black Cleopatra. Or Israeli Hummus.

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[–] bluewing@lemm.ee 54 points 3 days ago (8 children)

It's called White Savior Complex.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 31 points 3 days ago (9 children)

When I was growing up in the 80s and some frat-bro types ran around town dressed like the Three Amigos while swilling beers and fumbling their Spanish, parents and teachers would call it "tacky" and "annoying" and "juvenile".

Now, in the 20s, the children of those frat-bros puts on the same outfit and does the same stupid shit. But their peers are the ones rolling their eyes and telling them that they don't look cool, while the parents clap and take pictures and get off on a romanticized youth lived vicariously through their frat-bro kids.

So the frat-bros become resentful. They go home, pull out their crayons, and make up a naked brown man to give them permission to behave miserably. And then they go on podcasts and make Instagram reels explaining how - um, aktuly - if you don't think the tourist-trap Spirit Halloween tier get-up I'm wearing on Cinco-De-Drinko to celebrate getting wasted is cool, you're the real racists.

Then Budwiser releases an "Authentic Mexican Logger" and the same frat-bros lose their fucking minds because their favorite beer company just Went Woke.

[–] prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works 23 points 3 days ago

Now, in the 20s

Fuck, my back

[–] Jax@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 days ago

Cinco-De-Drinko - yeah that's a quick yoink, just so we're clear I will not be citing my sources

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[–] ImplyingImplications@lemmy.ca 171 points 3 days ago (11 children)

Cultural appropriation is when you take something sacred or special and don't treat it with respect. Sombreros and parkas are just clothes.

[–] idefix@sh.itjust.works 33 points 3 days ago (8 children)

Thanks for explaining. I never understood the American outrage about cultural appropriation but it's just about respecting sacred symbols from other cultures? Sounds about right, please feel free to dress as a Frenchman with beret and baguette as long as you respect our no-tipping policy.

Next item to discover on my list: why are Americans so upset about "black face". And that's what I witnessed in Sevilla (Spain) recently which did not seem racist to me at all: https://cnnespanol.cnn.com/2023/01/05/polemica-espana-blackface-reyes-magos-trax/

[–] ImplyingImplications@lemmy.ca 64 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Next item to discover on my list: why are Americans so upset about "black face".

That's because of minstrel shows. They were American comedy acts where actors would paint their faces black and act out racist stereotypes. The premise was "look at me! I'm a black person!" and then they'd do something stupid and everyone would laugh. Note that black people were slaves at the time. When slavery was (mostly) abolished after the civil war, the shows and makeup became symbols of racism.

It's kind of like how a swastika in a Buddhist temple is fine but a swastika tattoo on a white American isn't. The swastika doesn't have to be racist symbol, but there are few places you could display one without it being interpreted as a racist symbol.

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[–] madcaesar@lemmy.world 61 points 3 days ago (26 children)

Complaining about sharing cultures IS racism. These idiots complaining about cultural appropriation have gone too far up their own ass.

Melding, sharing food clothing and customs makes everyone better! These bullshit micro divisions need to stop.

[–] zqps@sh.itjust.works 27 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Sharing culture isn't cultural appropriation.

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[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It's kinda funny when some crazies are asking to see your family tree and genealogy sample to know if it's alright for you to wear a certain piece of clothing.

Let's observe the chart

[–] dejected_warp_core@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Oh good grief. Of course the Nazis had a chart. I hardly know any German, but there sure is a lot of "verboten" on that.

Makes me wonder if there was a similar thing for Jim Crow laws in the deep south.

[–] RunawayFixer@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago

They had an official "one-drop rule", so no need for a chart I guess. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

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[–] Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world 99 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Lol, reminds me of one of the Mario games a while back - no idea what the context was, but Mario took on different personas, which I'm assuming gave him abilities specific to whatever 'form' he took kinda like Kirby.

Anywho, one of them was a Mexican theme, which made Mario don a sombrero and poncho. Lots of touchy white people on the internet were PISSED cuz how could Nintendo be so insensitive to the Mexican culture?!

...meanwhile, Mexican gamers were fucking ecstatic cuz HOLY SHIT MARIO'S WEARING A SOMBRERO! LET'S GOOOOOO!!!

Good times.

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[–] lurklurk@lemmy.world 62 points 3 days ago (19 children)

The concept of cultural appropriation seems to be pretty useless in practice.

The cases I've encountered where it makes some bit of sense fit better under the concepts of racism or exploitation. The complaints about cultural appropriation online seem to more often attack innocent behaviour or someone genuinely appreciating another culture.

Drink tea, make tacos, wear a kimono, don't be an asshole

[–] zqps@sh.itjust.works 18 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (6 children)

The actual complaints I see about cultural appropriation online are mostly directed at corporations trying to sell ethnic stuff. But that's not as controversial.

The silly personal attacks are common in memes just like this one, serving as centrist strawmen to vilify progressives. People love to talk about and ridicule it so much that it seems a lot more common than it actually is.

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[–] Shardikprime@lemmy.world 107 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (11 children)

Literally no Latin American is going to be bothered Or annoyed in any way whatsoever if you don typical dresses of their culture.

We love our culture and love it even more when we influence gringos to dress as our ancestors did.

The joy is palpable. It makes you part of the family. And that's plenty

Besides, no one here knows what the deal is with getting offended on behalf of someone else. If anyone has a problem, they speak up their minds.

Slurs? Motherfückêr, that's half our language.

[–] Sc00ter@lemm.ee 56 points 3 days ago (29 children)

This is one thing ive never understood about "cultural appropriation." If someone is partaking in your nations/cultures traditions, apperal, food, etc. Why is that a bad thing? Wouldnt people want their traditions known and shared and experienced by many?

Idk im just a white guy who loves dia de los muertos

[–] aliceblossom@lemmy.world 32 points 3 days ago (12 children)

Enjoying other cultures isn't appropriation. I think the line where it becomes appropriation is profiteering. If you are commodifying and profiting off someone else's culture that's pretty shitty. Obviously that's not a perfectly clear cut line (who 'owns' culture?), but it's a good place to start.

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[–] BestBouclettes@jlai.lu 63 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (12 children)

Culture is meant to be shared, as long as you're respectful and you're not caricaturing or mocking the culture you're trying to portray, most people from said culture would be flattered.

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[–] LunarLoony@lemmy.sdf.org 43 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Case in point: Mexicans loved Speedy Gonzalez.

[–] VindictiveJudge@lemmy.world 34 points 3 days ago (6 children)

Probably because he always outwits his opponents and always wins. He's not any more crazy than the other Looney Tunes, he's as smart as Bugs, and unlike Bugs, he's never cruel and remains firmly heroic.

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[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 57 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (9 children)

It's real simple; is the group in general okay with you wearing doing thwir traditions? If yes, then it's okay.

So Kimonos, mostly okay, Native American Headdresses, mostly not okay.

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[–] Lighttrails@sh.itjust.works 50 points 3 days ago (3 children)

At my wedding reception, my wife’s cousins plopped a giant black and gold sombrero on my head to welcome me to the family. I’m expected to bring said sombrero to family get togethers and smash beers con mi familia

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[–] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 21 points 3 days ago (3 children)

I've never heard about "cultural appropriation" outside of jokes making fun of it. And it's one of the right's favourite strawmen. Maybe it's time to let it go?

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