this post was submitted on 31 Mar 2025
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    The indoctrination of windows is extreme. Windows is just as hard as linux, harder even with all the layers of obscurity.

    And yet... linux is hard, and users decry RTFM as "not growing the userbase"

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    [–] PieMePlenty@lemmy.world 64 points 6 days ago (7 children)

    I feel like linux demands an understanding of the relationship between hardware and software more than windows does.
    If all personal computer users were tech tinkerers like they were in the 70s and 80s, then linux and its distros would basically be the default OS everyone used. But that is not the world we live in. Microsoft saw a world where everyone was a computer user and Windows was designed in a way to support that vision.
    Theres nothing inherently wrong with catering to the lowest common denominator, linux apostles just need to understand that not everyone can be uplifted to their level, nor do they want to be - or, even, should be.

    [–] Muffindrake@lemmy.world 26 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (5 children)

    Microsoft saw a world

    That's not what happened. They got a dominant position because IBM could not even on their IBM PCs, and were at the right place at the right time, even if DOS was actually just garbage. With the power/money from this deal, they strongmanned their position as dominant PC operating system long after that era using legal and illegal anti-competitive means.

    Microsoft still has wide unethical reach with secret and not-so-secret contracts and agreements not to allow other operating systems to gain a foothold in OEMs. And that's before you get through the sheer inertia from users that completely refuse to try something different on the grounds that they don't want to.

    Besides this, the complete apathy in Europe moving off Microsoft software is quite concerning. Companies in the US are already collaborating with fascists in an unreflected way in true capitalist fashion - as happened 90 years ago. The reaction to this in terms of OS selection by companies is to hide their head in the sand and pour concrete for good measure. This will not work indefinitely, and I feel like nobody is going to suffer consequences for being a completely willful useful idiot for what is in summation a batshit fascist regime.

    Yes, I am putting Microsoft and fascism on the same pedestal, the end stage in Microsoft bashing. The sad part with this meme is that in 2025 it's not unwarranted.

    Nobody has ever been fired for ordering ~~SAP~~ Microsoft, right?

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    [–] Abnorc@lemm.ee 12 points 6 days ago

    This was my thought as well. Unix was built from the ground up as an OS to support researchers and engineers. Later people adapted it to desktop use. Windows was built to be easy to use for the average person from much earlier on. I don't think anyone claiming that it's not easier to use than Linux has used it lately or is being completely honest.

    Fortunately, today the gap is really small compared to what it was IMO. Compatibility with games has gotten really good which pretty much leaves behind the proprietary professional apps in terms of raw functionality. With Microsoft testing the limits of how much they can exploit their user base, I think we'll see slow but steady growth in the desktop Linux space.

    [–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

    This is exactly how I felt when I switched to Linux and it "clicked".

    This is what personal computers were supposed to always be like before Capitalism ruined it for everyone.

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    [–] heavy@sh.itjust.works 84 points 6 days ago (9 children)

    I mean, people are gonna bite my head off for this, but most non technical folks are turned off by someone calling them stupid... That's what "RTFM" sounds like. I think there needs to be a culture change to drive adoption, but stuff like the Steam Deck is helping a lot.

    [–] pinball_wizard@lemmy.zip 46 points 6 days ago

    Even technical folks aren't huge fans of RTFM.

    If I'm doing something incredibly interesting, and I'm asking for help, I should RTFM.

    If I'm doing something routine, we can (and usually do, now), make it simple enough not to need a manual.

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    [–] SuperSaiyanSwag@lemmy.zip 26 points 5 days ago (4 children)

    I was on a reddit thread the other day which was about Microsoft ending the support for Windows 10. Naturally, I thought people would be boasting about Linux in that thread, but nope, people just want to keep using windows 10 or want Steam to release SteamOS. This was the PC Gaming sub too.

    [–] lorty@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 days ago (1 children)

    I mean if people move to steamOS how is that not a win?

    [–] SuperSaiyanSwag@lemmy.zip 9 points 5 days ago

    That is a win. I was just surprised to not see anyone just say any of the existing distros, you know, multiple solutions that already exist.

    [–] CheeseNoodle@lemmy.world 11 points 5 days ago (2 children)

    I finally switched to Linux, while Linux itself is just as easy to use as Windows, actually installing Linux can be a nightmare. When setup works properly its no harder than windows, the other 95% of the time its about chasing down an easily solved problem but you have to figure out which easily solved problem it is.

    [–] floofloof@lemmy.ca 7 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (6 children)

    I install Linux on many machines each year, and I can't even remember the last time I had a problematic installation. Your experience sounds quite unusual. Are you using some obscure distro?

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    [–] And009@lemmynsfw.com 5 points 5 days ago

    You described installing old windows, before update took care of drivers.

    [–] drinkwaterkin@lemm.ee 7 points 5 days ago

    Strange, I was also on a thread about ending support, and I found (and upvoted) tons of comments about switching to Linux. Must have been from different communities.

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    [–] inbeesee@lemmy.world 26 points 6 days ago (1 children)

    The work windows did to make early windows intuitive really paid off. I was able to figure a lot out as a kid so I could play snake and minesweeper etc. Leaning into that will onboard new users, and that's why mint is so successful

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    [–] green@feddit.nl 47 points 6 days ago (16 children)

    Windows users and Linux users are not seeking the same thing from their machines. The common mistake I often see from Linux advocates.

    From personal experience, when I was a Windows user, I didn't care (or even know) about privacy, open-source software, nor owning my machine. I didn't care if I had to sign up for a Microsoft account, and I never changed defaults ever (except for my wallpaper). I just wanted the machine to turn-on, work, and play some games.

    Why am I bringing this up? Because Linux requires the user care about their machine and defaults. You need to know your architecture, graphics card, and threat-model. You need to know what your apps are called and where they come from. You need to know what tools you need to troubleshoot (and devs will not help you). This is the biggest the pain-point of Linux. Do not succumb to the survivorship bias of RTFM or command-line.

    This issue cannot be fixed from simplifying Linux interfaces (though we should do this anyway!). The soul of Linux is adventure, collaboration, and tinkering. To get the most from your machine, you're going to have to interact with several communities. This is what makes Linux great, and frankly I do not think we should kill this for the general public - this is how you get enshittification.

    The general public needs to understand that incompetence (being brain-dead) will lead to misery. It is simply the rule of the land. You need to care and you need to collaborate. We should not welcome nor accommodate users that refuse to do this.

    [–] MintyFresh@lemmy.world 39 points 6 days ago (1 children)

    I switched to Linux mint because I don't want to think about those things. I barely know how to use the terminal, and probably won't anytime soon. I just pulled the apps I needed off the software manager. I'm as happy as a clam in shit.

    An OS that just works, without the constant bullshit that capitalism breeds always encroaching. It does what I want when I want it, no more no less.

    [–] green@feddit.nl 10 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (10 children)

    Linux Mint is a great distro, and I'm happy it works for you.

    In terms of mass-adoption though, the fatal point is probably putting a Linux ISO on a thumb drive. Like I said prior, we must be aware of survivorship bias. You don't care much for the terminal - but you made it through.

    The people that didn't make it through probably failed from the thumb drive step. I only say this from personal experience, because when I first installed Linux, I was very determined and came extremely close to giving up at this step. And I only got through because I happened to find an obscure forum about how Rufus needed a special setting for my machine.

    P.S. I also was not tech savvy, but I wasn't completely lost either - and I still struggled really hard here.

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    [–] Morph9@lemmy.zip 12 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

    People don't have the time/will to research alternatives, that's why most of us follow trends. It's the old mantra "if is good enough for him...", and honestly, i don't feel to blame anyone. Computers by now are a necessary tool and people want an easy "switch an play" solution to use it.

    [–] Default_Defect@midwest.social 11 points 5 days ago (1 children)

    RTFM is great when it covers the problem you're having, but I've seen multiple times in various forums, when the problem isn't covered by the manual or the solution isn't immediately obvious, the user is just ignored entirely. Some people have a really weird "linux doesn't have any issues, its the user's fault" attitude.

    [–] gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 5 days ago

    Last year I got told to RTFM and was linked to a documentation page that said

    STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION

    Which was very helpful

    [–] AbsoluteChicagoDog@lemm.ee 21 points 6 days ago (9 children)

    Windows is not as hard as Linux. You're just being silly at this point. I'm not saying Windows is better, but it is engineered from the ground up to accommodate the lowest common denominator.

    Case in point, installing a program on Windows? Double click the exe and you're done. On Linux? It can be that simple but usually is much more involved.

    [–] wer2@lemm.ee 12 points 6 days ago (3 children)

    Double click the exe, pending update blocks the installer, reboot, click the exe, go through a wizard that ask questions you don't know the answer to (usually defaults are ok though), be prompted for admin password, get blocked by corporate policies, fill out the IT ticket, have them remote to your box and install, reboot, find the program in the menu, run it, have it blocked by HBSS, put in ticket for that, update antivirus, reboot, manually pull group policy updates, reboot, more updates install, reboot, run the program.

    Obviously silly, but also real.

    [–] tauren@lemm.ee 9 points 6 days ago

    It took me more time to read your post than to install a program.

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    [–] Apocalypteroid@lemmy.world 42 points 6 days ago (18 children)

    I'm probably gonna get hated on for this but here's my story:

    About 3 weeks ago I bought a new gaming laptop with no OS with the intention of installing Linux myself and ditching Windows.

    I'd read a lot online about how Linux was now competitive with Windows as Linux emulators could run Windows games with a 10-15% boost in performance. I read that it was all a case of finding the right distro and that Linux is much more user friendly and compatible now. So I did a little research, made myself a ventoy boot USB with Ubuntu, Mint, Debian, Pop, Garuda and Fedora to see which one I liked best.

    None of them worked properly. All of them had weird little quirks. Some I could live with, some were completely infuriating. So l did a little tinkering as I was determined not to give in. None of the distros detected my hardware properly, and so I went away found forums with similar issues and I fixed most of them. However, no matter what I tried I could not get the laptop speakers to work. No problem, I thought, I'll be either using headphones or BT to my soundbar (as that worked fine). So having given up on the speaker issue, I downloaded some games. In all of the distros they ran like shit. Sound bugs, laggy game play, some wouldn't play at all. Again, I tried tinkering with the settings, using a different version of proton, different sound drivers, different graphics settings, different commands and programs which might solve the issues. No. Each different distro threw up different issues which I spent hours and researching and experimenting. I tried a few more distros and found new issues which needed more research and more experimenting.

    Over the three weeks or so I was trying I became irritable and depressed. I'd spent a lot of money on the laptop and I was unable to use it because no matter what I tried, even with relatively low resource hungry games, they did not run well at all, and even linux itself seemed slow and unresponsive in comparison to what I was used to.

    So after hours and hours of climbing the walls and snapping at my wife and neglecting my kid, I downloaded Windows. And everything just works. There are bespoke programs for my graphics card and everything in my steam library runs beautifully with very minimal tinkering. So now I have a dual boot system, windows for games only and Linux for everything else.

    I hate that I'm still enthralled to Windows, but seriously, Linux is just not ready for mass adoption. If something doesn't work on Windows , it's usually a case of just downloading the correct driver and Windows normally knows which one you need. If something doesn't work on Linux it's a slog through paragraphs of text which all assume some basic knowledge of coding or Linux's file system or some other jargon, or watching endless YouTube videos and then still getting nowhere. As a working husband and father I just do not have the time to put into it.

    Tl;Dr - Windows is much easier than Linux. That's why everyone uses Windows.

    [–] pinball_wizard@lemmy.zip 42 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

    Oof. Sorry you had such a bad experience.

    Pro tip for others: It takes time for volunteers to reverse engineer new proprietary laptop hardware.

    If the laptop manufacturers aren't advertising Linux support, it's up to the community to play guess and check, to figure out what the proprietary drivers do.

    You might get lucky and pick the same exact model as a passionate reverse engineer. Or you might not.

    With old stuff, your odds are much better that someone has figured it out for you.

    For new hardware, it's still essential to pick a vendor that chooses to write and release Linux drivers.

    This will get better when truly open hardware platforms gain popularity.

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    [–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 12 points 5 days ago (11 children)

    Windows has the excuse of being preinstalled everywhere. It makes it very hard to break system or to use the system in a way not blessed by Microsoft.

    Linux is fairly easy to learn and gives you lots and lots of power.

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    [–] quid_pro_joe@infosec.pub 27 points 6 days ago (5 children)

    I recently switched to Linux after a lifetime with Windows. Last night I went to install a backup program on my media server but it couldn't see the destination drive. I downloaded a partition manager and it crashed trying to load the external drive. DDG'd the issue, but I couldn't find a clear cause/effect that applied to me. So I downloaded a different partition manager and backup program, and they worked right out of the box. Turns out the non-working apps were written for Gnome and the working apps were written for KDE, (which is my desktop environment). It was a very frustrating half hour, but it pales in comparison to the time I've spent troubleshooting (storage) driver issues in Windows. The point I'm making is, Linux isn't really that hard to learn, it's just unfamiliar and therefore scary. Getting past your fear unlocks a whole new world of wonder and possibilities! 🐧

    [–] rikudou@lemmings.world 13 points 6 days ago

    Oh yeah, Windows storage driver issues are great if you need to kill time. Nothing better than your Windows installer claiming there's no disk. Great in combination with missing touchpad drivers. But hey, at least I found out it can indeed be installed without a working mouse and that includes installing the storage driver!

    [–] Petter1@lemm.ee 8 points 6 days ago (1 children)

    🧐never had an linux app not working because it was β€œnot designed for my desktop environment” I am confused, I was sure all Linux app run on all window manager / desktop environment πŸ€”

    Are you sure?

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    [–] crozilla@lemmy.world 12 points 6 days ago (4 children)

    I’ve used a Mac since forever. But I started using FOSS apps. Then I created a Hackintosh, until it borked. Then I installed ZorinOS and almost didn’t need to fix the Hackintosh. I did fix it, but Zorin convinced me that Linux is legit and I’m going all in on it.

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    [–] yucandu@lemmy.world 12 points 6 days ago

    Linux isn't hard anymore because I have ChatGPT to come up with all the command lines for me. And they work 60% of the time!

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