This is why I only have ranked sex
this post was submitted on 05 Apr 2025
32 points (88.1% liked)
The Deprogram Podcast
922 readers
18 users here now
International Anti-Capitalist podcast run by an American, Slav and an Arab.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
Breaking News: Iraqi Muslim Doctor Marxist-Leninist has a different view on casual sex than Anglosphere Internet Marxist-Leninists; Anglosphere Internet Marxist-Leninists are compelled to opine that he's wrong.
I'm not quite sure how to take this framing. I can't speak for others, but the main problem I had was the claim that "the research is absolutely clear on this" (it seems to be mixed) and the use of vague generalizing language to say why and how it's a problem. My criticism primarily had the west and its research in mind, and patriarchal thinking generally, which is a problem in many countries including places like the US. If there is research in other cultures and languages that tells a much more clear picture about "casual sex", I will happily consider it, but am only fluent in the one language sadly, so it would be difficult to find such things, much less understand them.
Basically, I'm not sure what him being, as you say, an Iraqi Muslim Doctor Marxist-Leninist, has to do with this. He even made a point of saying it's not about "prudeness" and that there are "secular arguments for general social and sexual modesty." Between that and the focus on what "research" says, he appears to be arguing within the context of secular science, not within a religious basis, so isn't it only natural for his claim to be addressed in that context?
As someone who was fairly deep into hookup culture, take this as just a single data point, so anecdotally.
Hookups were great when both parties are on the same page and there's open communication and understanding that this is all it is. If both parties want to hook up again, that's ok too.
But you don't develop emotional bonds with anyone you hookup with, nor should you. You also can't easily date someone you were hooking up with, there's too much baggage from you both to sort out first and it's never worked out for me or anyone I know.
At some point you will get exhausted by the constant hookups, and the draining effect it has on you to be at the top of your game in all respects, only to roll the dice every time on whether or not you're sexually compatible with your hookup.
The sex can be good, or bad, but usually it's mediocre. Occasionally you'll hook up with someone you're highly compatible with and the first time never stops, so through the night and weekends and into the week, sort of thing.
The soul crushing experience is when you meet someone like that and want the great sex to never end and emotions start interfering for one or the both of you. The issue is you actually have no basis for a relationship, it was founded in a primal desire. Turning that into a functioning long term relationship was impossible, at least for me, every time it was tried. Even if you're both willing to give it a go because the sex is great.
This is all not taking into account the added stress of having to be super careful for STIs and having awkward talks if not and explore where your comfort limits are at. It can be very stressful, and you're typically getting tested at least once a month as that's what it typically expected for you to have a "clean" bill of health for a hookup partner. Often that conversation never happens though and you just kinda cross your fingers.
Anyhow, when I stopped hookups, I was looking for an emotional connection. Someone I could just be my real self with and who I could watch and enjoy things I liked doing in life, with a partner. The sex is less important as you can build off that with someone who you have open communication with. This lets you try new sexual activities that are cumbersome or awkward with hookups (e.g. Roleplay). Even if the sex isn't stellar at first with your long term partner, my experiences have been it gets steadily better the more you communicate with each other and talk and are open to trying new things that gently push your boundaries in a healthy way together.
So, did it do emotional damage to me? Maybe. But so do divorces and rough breakups. Hookups were a way to protect myself emotionally after a really, really bad breakup. So in a way, it absolutely helped me heal until I was ready for an emotional connection with someone again. A lot of people in hookup culture fell into this bucket I discovered, though there were definitely the men and women that did it because they were emotionally stunted and this is all they wanted out of life. Sometimes they stay with it for their whole life, and those kinds of people tend to be real sociopaths in general. Not sure if it was because of the hookups, or if they preferred hookups because they were sociopaths, but either way they're not people you want to spend a ton of time with outside of the hookup.
Anyone claiming to have some blanket statement or belief that applies across the board is probably full of shit. Like everything, it's a spectrum. It works for some for a period of their life where they want physical intimacy without emotional burdens. That's the category I fell into, but there's dozens of other situations and reasons in additions to the ones I've already mentioned.
So whoever this Hakim guy is is likely full of shit and has zero personal experiences and likely just confirmation biases the supporting articles to confirm his existing beliefs. Because if he really knew what it was like, he'd understand like everything else, it's never black and white.
Thanks, but I don't need a youtuber saying what is and isn't "psychologically destructive" for me. I've had plenty of casual encounters and I actually think that if most of my serious relationships were actually just casual encounters I would be a lot better off "mentally".
So, I'd say the opposite. Committed relationships can be terrifying, destructive and can change you entirely as a person as that is what they demand if you want to improve yourself for the other person and all of that could still be for nothing other than yourself when the other person decides they're tired/bored of you. At least with a casual encounter, there isn't anything expected on the table nor anything emotional at least for me.
Does the West need a better hook-up culture? Yes. Otherwise though, if he is offering "personal opinions" based upon constantly changing psych research then I think I'll just tuck it in the "Youtuber Takes" pocket.
Bit of a weird take by Hakim. There is an argument to be made about how we, especially in the west, view sex and casual hookups but saying it is psychologically destructive is just nonsense. There's nothing wrong with having casual sex with consenting adults regardless of if you know them or if you just met them. Don't let some random YouTuber guilt trip you into some other idea.
Aren't you Dutch? I heard the Netherlands was one of the most "sex positive" places on the planet.
I am and I guess that is (or was) true. I mean that's how I was raised at least: love who you want however you want as long as there is consent (and legal age of course). Though The Netherlands has gotten far more conservative over the last few years sadly.
I've read papers that indicate that there's much less risk of damage in casual sex in places like that compared to the US where the culture and sex ed are much worse. As MLs, we need to observe these kinds of phenomena in the context of the world around them.
During my stay in Netherlands (two two three years in total for different temporary jobs) I just loved big cities like Amsterdam: amazing people, queer culture, a lot of neat things! Some small towns were surprisingly horrible and conservative, though. There were situations that really shocked me and trashed my idealized expectations. It was such a mixed bag
It sounds like a conclusion that is not easily backed by research. "Psychologically destructive" is incredibly vague, as is "the effect is cumulative" (it is confusing to even guess at what this is supposed to mean - that with each new partner, your mental health gets worse? there are absolutely people who have had many casual partners and are doing fine, and implying each new casual one makes it worse sounds vaguely patriarchal).
A lot of it most likely comes down to how a person views the sex and what they're doing it for. For example, if they're using it to achieve some fleeting sense of conquest or avoid confronting attachment issues, that's obviously going to be a strain on them. But that does not cover how everyone is going to see it.
I did some reading in the meantime since I saw this post, and I'm surprised that there is alot of truth in what he is saying.
His argument still has a patriarchal and prudist tinge to it.
Edit: Why the downvotes? This is kinda reactionary.
FWIW, I was not one who downvoted you. However, I am doubtful of the claim that there's truth in what he's saying. Not because of any suspicion toward you, but because I have trouble believing there's a clear way to frame "casual sex -> negative outcomes" in the first place, much less draw more than shaky causal links. At the offset, it would be a difficult thing to observe and study beyond (limited usefulness) self-reporting. And there are problems sometimes with psych studies that are like "we studied a few tens of college students" and it turns out it's highly relative to that region and age group they studied.
On top of that, there is reason to be doubtful in general about positions that try to make scientific the taboo of sleeping around, considering the already-existing stigma it often has (is it coming from a null hypothesis place where it's trying to prove that there is no special link between casual sex and negative outcomes, or is it trying to use science to reinforce the taboo).
And as someone else pointed out, since you didn't say where you did your reading, I can't check for myself and apply these doubts to the same sources. I suppose I could do my own web searches, but I might not find the same sources and might overly focus on ones that reinforce my doubts rather than giving a fair look to the contrary.
I appreciate that.
I'm very well aware of the stigma and stereotypes and patriarchal stuff related to people trying to shame others for sleeping around, and I didn't at all mean that in a negative way.
I understand your concerns, and I appreciate your way with words.
You did some reading... But you didn't tell us what you read so we can more easily investigate the literature for ourselves. That may be why you caught some downvotes.
That's understandable, I suppose. My thinking though was that since I'm not a scientist, I don't think I could adequately summarize it, and even if I could, people would ask for the links anyway.
Right... so you could post the links, then.
I did.
Historically psych research has ranged from wildly pro-sex, treat a handjob like a handshake to no one should ever have sex other than to procreate. Saying ‘the research is very clear’ is just wrong. In general, the number of topics that can be considered very clear in psychological research can be counted on one hand.
Personally I don’t think any of it is meaningful outside societal context. In a very conservative culture, having casual sex could lead to judgements from third parties that significantly impact one’s life. Hard to say that’s the fault of casual sex more than it is a case of violating a taboo like any other. I don’t know of anywhere this is currently the case, but I think we could imagine another ‘sexually liberated’ culture where not participating in casual sex could lead to suspicion among others pretty plausibly too.
what research? where is it? who performed it? how is "casual sex" defined?
I asked him, but he hasn’t responded yet. Once he does, I will upgrade the image on the post to include the response
kinda funny that this is at the top of that search
frequent reminder not to idolize anyone, especially a youtuber.
Hakim is not correct on this and he's just giving off self report bitter vibes lol.
I've read some scientific reports/articles about this, and I was surprised that Hakim is largely right. Or at least, alot of it is right.
That being said, it feels weird for him to comment on.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to psychology studies. Not to harp on the "psychology isn't science" shtick, but the fact is, it is extremely difficult to run studies on these kinds of things. Usually it boils down to mass questionaires that usually disregard other factors. Psychology studies are the epitome of "correlation does not mean causation", and one should be very mindful of that before drawing conclusions.
There's probably destructive psychological effects associated with repeated casual sex, but is it the act itself causing it or other underlying factors?
Psychology is a science though. It's relatively new in the grand scheme of things, but it's very much a science.
And I'm kind of tired of reading that correlation doesn't equal causation. Most people already understand this.
You misunderstood. It's a science, sure. But psychology studies things that are not at all easily quantifiable, and as such, studies in psychology should be taken with a grain of salt, unless one is willing to thoroughly examine the methods and data before reading the conclusions.
And just to be clear, since you seem to be getting downvoted, I don't think you should be getting downvoted.
I get that alot of psychological studies aren't easily quantifiable, but I think most of the time that sounds like an excuse rather than a reason.
After almost 2 centuries, psychology is just now starting to bear some fruit. Though more research and caution is always welcome.
Highly skeptical, link the studies.
Admittedly, the jury is still out and is mixed, but there is at least alot of truth in Hakim's words. And I don't approach this necessarily in a positive or negative light, just objectively.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8579856/
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2013/02/ce-corner
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-men/202006/the-darker-side-of-casual-sex
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-the-impact-of-casual-sex-on-mental-health-5179455
https://www.sexandpsychology.com/blog/2019/10/14/nine-things-you-should-know-about-casual-sex/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-the-name-of-love/202109/is-casual-sex-really-so-bad
Interesting. I skimmed through the sources. It does read like about what I would expect. Mixed consensus and the studies tend to be focused on college campuses and self reporting. The largest one mentioned, if I read right, also admits that it's somewhat of a causal link and may not be controlling for whether it's that people who are already worse off in mental health are more likely to seek out casual sex to compensate, or that casual sex is the cause itself.
It may have some crossover with use of porn, in that it can have negative outcomes due to the "disposable" nature of how a person can perceive it and the missing emotional connection when coming down from the sexual "high", but can also be healthily enjoyed if the person has stable emotional connection through other means and is not trying to compensate for that with it.
Yeah, that all sounds about right. And it seems like the studies had some bias in favor of WASPs.
How the hell do you scientifically measure what is casual sex and what is not
I wager that it's likely a spectrum, but more specifically, hooking up casually is different than not-casually. There is some middle-ground.
Surely the action of inserting unfamiliar penis into unfamiliar vagina isn't mentally destructive. If there's truth to these statements, I think it'd have a lot more to do with your relationship to sex and your own self confidence/worth. And I could see that - sex/orgasms are extremely powerful reward systems within our brain that can easily reinforce negative behaviors or thoughts.
I'm non-binary. Am I thus immune to the psychologically destructive effects?
Another NB win
I'm not a doctor, so I lean towards Hakim being correct on this, and I'm sure that what he is saying is very likely true.
This feels slightly weird for him to comment on. And it still seems like prudeness.
That all being said, I can imagine that "hooking up" in a socialist society, where everyone's needs and most desires are taken care of, would be wildly more different and healthier than in a capitalist dog-eat-dog society.
All I can say is that plenty of people should think less with their genitals.
Welp, he's just repeating what his church or whatever says. Casual sex works great for some people, not so much for others. Some people can tell what works for them, others have to go find out what they like best.
But one thing it is not: psychological destructive. Bad people in your life can be though. Like people who confidently state that kind of #####t. Exposure to ######t I suppose you could consider cumulative.
Why did you censor your comment?
Personal preference
Now I don't know what you're trying to say tho
the censored bit is "bullshit"