"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.". ― H.L. Mencken
Leave it to him to say it better than I ever could.
Yeah - I never even bother trying to explain some point I know he's already addressed, since anything I might come up with is going to be inferior anyway.
It’s very simple. It’s because people falsely mistake freedom of speech for freedom from consequence.
In other words, you have the right to be an asshole, but if you do it too much, others can invoke their right be assholes right back to you.
Because assholes commonly don't understand "free speech" doesn't also mean "free of consequences." They don't think they should have consequences. They don't actually care about free speech.
Yep. It's because assholes who cry about "free speech" tend to not understand this - https://xkcd.com/1357
None of the free speech crowd actually understand what the first amendment means. So they claim that boycotting an artist for saying some racist shit is denying them their freedom of speech. These turds need to take a civics class.
I am not an American, but reading your Constitution.. with respect, I feel like your Founding Fathers would have many issues with how your Country is currently run, from what I have seen and read in the media
I mean... I have many issues. But I'm just one lowly pleb
But we’re all lowly plebe. That’s sorta the point of the constitution. The people pushing the idea that money or your job makes you more important are full of crap. The only thing it implies is that all of us should be well-informed, but equality is the whole reason for the constitution
People only invoke the feelings of the founders when they either don't have a stronger argument or are trying to appeal to conservatives. It's basically religious interpretation at this point - mostly used to manipulate people who don't know better.
Also, “Freedom of Speech” is likely the last (or only) defense they have. When they say indefensible shit, it’s often the only shield they have. Because if you can’t justify your speech or back it up with anything substantive, it’s essentially the only thing you can rely on.
It’s basically the “God told me” argument that religious people use. It can’t be argued against, because nobody can refute it. But it also means that when you hear someone using it as their first and last line of defense, that they actually have zero defense for it aside from that.
And yeah, it’s often misunderstood. People scream about free speech when getting cancelled for being racist, but that’s not an actual defense because they’re not being arrested for saying it. It isn’t the government imposing restrictions on your speech.
Best joke I heard is: if everyone's pissed at what you said, and your only defense is "technically, it wasn't illegal for me to have said that!", it was probably a pretty bad argument.
Exactly. If your only defense is “the government can’t stop me from doing it” then you’re probably an asshole for doing it.
This. I love it when I engage in discussion with a person and when I don't blindly agree with everything they say, they scream that I'm violating their first amendment.
Because freedom of speech only needs to be invoked for distasteful speech. And what's distasteful is subjective.
I'm pretty far left in my politics, and growing up in a very far right area of the country, I'm aware that the principal behind free speech is very important. The social pressure to fit in was bad enough on its own; I could only imagine how bad it would have been if they had ability to shut people up by force.
Everyone gets their rocks off dunking on rightoids being shitheels and hiding behind their freedom to be a shitheel. They rarely pause to think how it might be turned on them. Because newsflash, shitheelery is really fucking popular because humans are terrible. If your ideal form of governance and the distribution of rights therein depends on people being as "good" as you are, you're going to have a bad time.
I understand your conclusion, but in my experience not many people are advocating for reducing their 1st amendment rights. The majority of my experience with people claiming free speech is when it doesn't apply. Like it does not protect anyone from being laughed at, ostracized, does not force people to buy goods or services from someone who says wild shit, and no one is required to give them a platform.
You are technically correct. I just also happen to believe in and advocate for the concept of free speech beyond what is strictly its role in government. You are absolutely allowed to do all those things as an individual. It's part of your free speech rights. I think the world might be a little better in the long run if we valued the concept beyond its application to state sanctioned violence, though.
Underrated comment.
Because insuring free speech includes everyone and the most strident assholes believe themselves to have the right to speak first and as loudly as possible.
It doesn't mean we don't discount their bullshit and laugh at them, it just means they are the loudest and quickest.
Just to be clear, if they do somehow bring up a valid point, it is not dismissed out of hand like the obvious bullshit is.
Freedom of speech does mean that.
It means you have the absolute right to say anything you want to say. It also means you can say something without being a hypocrite, as you are free to speak on a particluar topic you have knowledge on or have not committed whatever you are condemning.
Many people misunderstand the term freedom of speech with regards US federal law. That law is a specific protection from the federal government for citizens, businesses, and other organizations. It is specifically to protect them from retaliation by the federal government.
It is important to note that the law does not protect citizens, businesses, or organiztions from each other. Such protections would be from local laws regarding defamation or libel.
GenX lefty here.
I grew up with freedom of speech (the overall ideal, not the US legal concept) being a non-negotiable, axiomatic thing.
Every bit of social progress the world has seen, came about by loudly and obnoxiously challenging accepted norms, and refusing to sit down and shut up. Civil rights, worker's rights, women's rights, gay rights, trans rights and a whole bunch more - all of them only advanced by brave people getting up on their hind legs and speaking up for them, even though it was considered an affront to common decency, even an abomination.
For a bunch of overprivileged idiots to try and pull the ladder up behind them because their comfort is offended... really fucking bothers me.
I promise, I absolutely guaranfuckingtee that every person alive today will one day be on the wrong side of history; there are norms in society that our descendants (should humanity survive long enough for us to have any) will be utterly disgusted with all of us; and we would be just as disgusted by them. The shiny GenZ hope-of-the-world darlings of today will be the contempible boomers of 60 years from now, that's just how history works. You can't stop that from happening; the best you can do is increase social flexibility and mobility so they don't remain totally rooted in the norms of their youth.
The absolute unmitigated gall of people today to imagine that no, unlike all that came before them, they have the right of it, that their accepted norms must be coddled and protected from any that might dare challenge them, that social change can stop right here.... fuck no, fuck that, fuck them, fuck the entire concept.
You don't disable progress, you mustn't hobble change. And speech that offends us is the only way you get change, pretty much by definition.
Once you silence offensive speech (of whatever form), you're locking in the status quo, and ironically that's the most conservative thing you can ever do. Even if you believe that you and your team will never censor genuine activism, once you enable shutting-people-up as an option, you hand an absolutely terrifying weapon to the assholes that take power next time you lose the election.
Now I will grudgingly concede that the landscape has changed, that the coming of the information age has shifted the way everything works, that the mechanisms and underlying rules are changing, and that the principles of absolute freedom of speech that made sense in my youth no longer get you the same results. The internet is a big scary machine, and its ability to create filter bubbles and viral trends and cliques and misinformation and just general ugh... is pretty damn terrifying. Just look at the damn antivaxers, climate change deniers, the rampant and increasing transphobia, the fascist assholes getting their hooks in everywhere - clearly the marketplace of ideas is a mob town now, and we can't just expect it to run itself.
How do we fix it? I don't fucking know. Both sides seem to lead some pretty terrible places - is there a middle path somewhere? How do we trust anyone to steer it?
I agree on a lot of points, although it seems I have a more pacifist outlook while you have a more active outlook which if I am honest does more for progress.
I see freedom of speech - in the general sense - as a means to be able to express yourself and your opinions and I feel that if people could express that without outright spreading a feeling of hatred and rage then I feel pretty much anything goes within reason. As even innocuous well meaning ideas can lead to dangerous outcomes.
That doesn't mean people should expect the status quo, but sometimes I look at chimps and their "gang wars" and think we aren't that much different sometimes.
For reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War
We are primed to respond most strongly with hatred and rage... perhaps some deep primitive instinct and that gets taken advantage of.
Humans nature seems to be a violent one and if I look at history it is unfortunately violence that seems to be the most effective means to get through our thick human psyche to advance. Ancient Egypt, Alexander's Legacy, Rome's rise and fall, The Crusades, French Revolution, British Empire, American Independence, The World Wars.
We are forever doomed to repeat history it seems until history can no longer repeat
It is like humanity must experience great suffering and that suffering must reach a tipping point before we as a collective species change
What the next big tipping point will be that forces a change, if we last that long, I don't know as well
I think those people are worried about losing their freedom of speech because people often tell them to shut the fuck up.
They are afraid of "cancel culture" because when they see someone being punished for being loud and obnoxious, they get concerned that THEY might get in trouble for being loud and obnoxious. They don't want to stop being that way, so they feel the need to fight for their right to be an asshole.
Popular speech doesn't require defense.
Rowan Atkinson describe it perfectly for me. https://youtu.be/xUezfuy8Qpc
This only works for that particular law (insults) and I agree. However it breaks down at misinformation and allowing more of it enables attacks on the very foundation of those freedoms. And very often insults and misinformation go hand in hand in people with extremist stances.
The simple answer is they're attempting to insulate themselves from consequence or challenge.
Free speech doesn't work like that (it only protects you from gov't retaliation, not other private citizens), but it doesn't stop them from trying because as some of the responses here exemplify, people will fall for it and let them continue saying whatever, regardless of whether it's true or harmful to the vulnerable.
Because people don't grasp what "free speech" means, at least in the US context.
Freedom of speech (expression) protects one against government interference with expression. The US government can't stop you from saying bigoted, racist, or sexist things because you have the freedom to express yourself.
But.
Freedom of speech doesn't require anyone to offer you a platform to share your views, nor does it mandate an audience. If your views are unpopular, freedom of speech doesn't prevent others from denying you business or employment generally either; the ol' "consequences of your actions" principle.
Bad actors want the right, a mandated platform, and no consequences for being shitty. They get upset when they find out that they're entitled to neither a platform nor protection from consequence.
Well, if you’re saying things everyone agrees with, you probably won’t have problems, and it won’t even come up whether you have the right to speak. Freedom of speech only comes up as a concept when it is in conflict with other interests.
Many legal issues are defined by their extremes. That doesn’t mean they only encompass extremes. Just that it’s the extremes that delineated the actual boundaries.
There's usually no need to invoke "freedom of speech" when the things you're saying are popular and nobody is offended by it.
But there is also no need to invoke "freedom of speech" if the things you're saying are unpopular and many people are offended by it... unless the government is trying to stop you from expressing those things. If people are asking the bouncer to chuck somebody out of the bar, that person might as well invoke the third amendment against quartering soldiers in their house because that's exactly as irrelevant to the situation as the first.
Firstly, you're assuming an American legal jurisdiction, which is a bad assumption in a global Fediverse.
Secondly, being "legalistic" at all is unwarranted. "Freedom of speech" has broader meaning than just what some specific constitution or some specific set of laws says. If someone is arguing that there should be free speech on an instance then saying that "free speech only applies to government restrictions" is just as relevant as your argument about quartering soldiers or whatever. That is, it's not relevant. Instances can have "free speech" if they want to regardless of if they're governmental, which means we can argue in favor or against them having free speech if we so desire.
People seems to be under the impression that freedom of speech means freedom from consequences, that you're free to spout all sorts of hateful nonsense and not have to deal with the hurt they cause.
It's because there are, like many things, 80% of us who get what the intentions were, while there is 20 percent who abuse it or mishandle it. It's not the a majority are asses though, just the crazies get more airtime, and then it becomes an echo chamber.
Makes sense keep forgetting how a minority make enough noise and saturates things to a point where it appears more common than it seems
I may be mistaken, but wasn't it Mark Twain who said that ever American has a God given right to make a total fool of themselves? Americans famously take a notion to doing that and flipping a very public bird to each other. The last great bird flipping was of course the election of Trump...
I wish people didn’t confuse the right to do something with the necessity to go do it. I fully support people’s right to be removeds, but I honestly don’t understand why anyone would want to be an removed
"Have you tried a task manager?" to me, with ADHD.
Bro, I tried all the task managers and tried to make my own one.
Because when the best thing that can be said about what you're saying is "it's not literally illegal to say it", you're probably scraping the bottom of the barrel with respect to the content of your words.
It's also often that if people are reduced to using it as an argument, they've already been told to shut up, and that no one in their company wants to hear what they have to say. Kind people who say disagreeable things are usually open to hearing about why people are disagreeing, or having feelings about what is said. So, that leaves the unkind assholes insisting they have a right to an audience.
Because literally their only excuse for what they're saying is that the government can't legally stop them from saying it
It invokes any number of people from all around the spectrum to be an arse.
If you're trying to be neutral or just don't much care for some particular political issue (what's political or not is an interesting question in itself, but nowadays anything is), you see just as much toxicity from all the ends of the spectrum.
I still can't believe all the fights that were ensuing regarding wearing masks. But once something becomes a symbol...
I'd even argue the "left" is faster to call names and dump baseless accusations on anyone quite at random, to be honest.
I mean, just watch the downvotes on this comment from the "if you're not with us, you're a nazi" crowd.
I won't be getting into it more in public. It's just hard for me to leave posts like this alone.
If you’re trying to be neutral or just don’t much care for some particular political issue
There is no such thing, if you're "neutral" you're merely defending the status quo. The right defends the status quo, the left opposes it.
Read this quote by one of the greatest heroes of the world, Martin Luther King:
I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice [...]
I guess that's not wrong, but I can passionately care about some other matter where the status quo is borked, and I can choose to fight that, and not some other random thing you care about. That doesn't make me an ass or something other.
It's a really interesting thing how the so-called "left" and "right" have chosen to fight over a handful of random things, and just as randomly chose to support one or the other side of the argument.
Almost as if, I dunno, these things weren't even all that divisive in the first place, but it just might be in someone's interest for people to fight over and not notice potentially worse things that are going on.
Not an American, so the whole America politica is not my thing
My personal opinion or stance if I had to take one is one has the freedom to express themselves, but to also take into to try respect another's beliefs and reasoning
So in this case, you have the right to express your opinions, you have made some assumptions, but still showed some level of restraint. Therefore I am, personally, going to respect your right to expression - seems sanctimonious for me to write that case but yeah... I do not know I am trying not to get into any ideology facets just trying to explore a question that has been bubbling in my mind.
( if you want my take on masks and you are free to disagree, is that during covid masks would lessen viral aerosol load.... so not foolproof but I find dealing with a 10000 viral load easier to deal with than 100000000 viral load)
Meh, confirmation bias here anecdotal notions. As someone on the left I can say I argue with people all the damn time without calling them nazis Assuming of course they aren't pushing for the genocide of a people.
A lot of people in both the left and the right argue with the other side all the time withour abusing the other of being a Nazi. However there are a number on both sides that assume anyone not in perfect agreement with them must be a Nazi. (Hint there are now two people on earth 100% agreed on everything, so such people tend to accuse a lot of people of being a Nazi)
It’s a combination of ignorance and entitlement. They think free speech means freedom from consequence and entitlement to a platform and/or audience. That’s why they get mad and claim it’s censorship when they’re banned for breaking rules etc.
Also they only care about their freedom of speech, despite their claims to the contrary.
Because freedom of speech doesn’t mean I have to listen to you or let ignorance slide as a valid take. It only protects you from the government and not my calling out nonsense
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