Comradeship // Freechat

Heh, when I read 'fictional genocides' in your title I though you were gonna talk about Xinjiang

Its almost as if entertainment creates the socio-cultural tropes to uphold exploration and capitalism. Most people solely lay the blame on STEM for building the weapons that kill, but forget that the social sciences create the ideas that kill.

It's not weird at all. In fact, I'd argue it is very healthy.

Stories are our way of transferring human experience from one to another. Our brains intentionally blur fiction and reality to facilitate this transfer regularly. While not a positive example, you can see it in action when fictional representations of, say, trans people are only informed by the media consumed due to the lack of other experiences to draw on. Once an experience/story is no longer relevant or helpful, we forget it. When you read a forgettable story, that's exactly what happened.

To categorize them in the way of the Ancient Greeks, Tragedies are cautionary tales, and Dramas are explorative/navigational—meaning they primarily help us navigate the comprehensive options of situations.

Looking at the stories themselves, we can see their structure parallels that of proper arguments.

One-act stories are a thesis—they answer a single question Three-act stories are a thesis, countered by an antithesis, and then the synthesis/conclusion. Five-act stories are more based on Marxist thought—a thesis that examines the contrast, contradiction, and possibly the negation of the negative before forming its synthesis.

Long story short, what is a story beat but elaborate dressing for points A, B, and C, leading us to the next logical point and its reasoning? It's an illusion and allegory of crashing emotions, symbols, and situations for our subconscious to process the same way it does all our experiences. Memory itself is a story we are retelling ourselves.

And that's underlying all stories that at least have some structure holding them up. Of course, it's going to affect you. And it should.

I've taken a morbid interest in watching the drama of the Kaldorei/Night Elves story unfold and the drama erupting from it. For some in the Imperial core, it's the first thought they've ever given thought to the complications and effects of colonization and genocide on a people. Is it anywhere near enough? Oh, hell no. But the capitalists' need to sell [edgy] stories at least is breaking the veneer of silence civility of not talking about hard issues. And they'll keep having to push that line to make money. And as they do, more voices that generally get glossed over will slip through in the trend-chasing. And now and again, we might get a comrade's allegorical voice (see some of the classics like A CHRISTMAS STORY). Contradictions exist in storytelling, too, and it plays out the same way as it does in other areas. It will affect you like everyone else because you are digesting it like everyone else. We communists, arguably more so because we can see most of it as the junk food it is—and trying to enjoy the odd bit of nutrients that slip through capitalism/liberalism's processing. But these imagined yet shared common experiences are also what will provide us with the common ground needed to reach others here and there.

Fictional genocides make me just as angry and uncomfortable as real genocides and I do not think that's weird

This is good.

Yeah it bothers me. /r/Stellaris likes to make xenocide jokes and it makes me uncomfortable because I feel it hides a desire in the real. Threads like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/18fvk6p/do_you_think_the_north_sentinelese_people_and/ reveal that people aren't able to joke about genocide given their views on real world people.

Goblin Slayer is 1000% Day of the Rope for weebs.

Frieren is interesting. I can't tell if it's progressive or the most fascist animation ever put to screen. It is worth noting that while GS goblins are basically rape-focused chimpanzees, the Demons in Frieren are much closer to an antisemitic stereotype, it literally being said that they only learn human language so that they can use it to lie, etc., with the merciful and humane people who say "surely we shouldn't kill demon toddlers, right?" being proven wrong and renouncing their view after their tolerance enables the Demons to infiltrate society and do more harm. Waiting to see if there's any kind of twist or if it's just that fash.

I don't necessarily mind it existing in fiction, anymore than any other hard reality can exist in fiction, but it depends on how it is handled. If the denizens of the world accurately recognize it as a horrible thing, it's very different to me than matter-of-factedly "we murdered all the native inhabitants of this realm and now it is ours!" takes.

I hate it when say...a race was oppressed by another race, and the player character single handedly settles generations of animosity between the two. Or when the oppressed people take back their land and are somehow portrayed as bad for not wanting to work with their colonizers.

Admittedly, all the genocides and the hyper-racialized nature of both TES and its fanbase are exactly why I can't get into it anymore. It feels too real-world adjacent for the sheer amounts of settler horseshit packed into it. Literally every time I think about installing Skyrim, all I can think of is "wait, so the only main-faction choices I have are the ethnostatist crackers or the imperial menace?" And the idea gets thrown out so I can go and start another BG3 or FNV run or smth.

I feel the same. They say fiction reflects reality- and I'd argue that the various series of genocides in TES (and their "justifications"), or- as someone mentioned, the settler-colonial nature of the elves in the Simarillion/LoTR, is from the perspective of white, western- particularly Anglophone if not just outright Anglo-Saxon- writers, almost glorifying or finding ways to justify the actions of their ancestors- whether it was the genocides of the indigenous peoples of much of North America and Australia (among many other, far smaller regions), or it was the (granted, far less genocidal and more assimilationist) actions of their ancient Germanic ancestors against the indigenous Celts. I'm saying this as someone who generally enjoys both universes...

Another fictional genocide that I really dislike, is that of the Uchiha in Naruto- their systemic discrimination is waved away, the involvement of the village in the massacre of their population, when discovered, is knowingly and comfortably swept under the rug by the protagonists, and the last Uchiha (Sasuke) is pretty much vilified for his entirely understandable and even agreeable actions of, after learning the truth, seeking the destruction of the hidden villages' nigh fascistic political systems. Once again I'd argue that the mentality presented in Naruto reflects the mentality of the society, and particularly the author who wrote it- as someone who enjoys (with mixed feelings) the series, I would posit that it probably says a lot about the unwavering nature of Japanese ultranationalism, the sometimes violent conformity it espouses, and it definitely is greatly influenced by Japan's own mainstream mentality in regards to minimizing or dismissing the crimes of its past.

In both cases, those portrayed as "protagonists" and "heroes" by and large, are the perpetrators- and the writers are descendants of perpetrators, themselves. These fictions expose biases that can't help but expose themselves when given a fantasy outlet with few repercussions- celebrating blatant genocide and war crimes in real life can have repercussions, and for the somewhat more decent folk, they're also capable of realizing how fucked up it all is when looking at the undeniable results of their beliefs. Fiction allows them to justify it all, to write "their team" out to be the heroes no matter how it all goes, and it gives them a lot of societal leeway for presenting even the most horrible things in a positive light.

seeing someone say “They deserved it” even in regards to a fictional species hurts in a deep way.

That's how it should be, tbh. I'd argue that someone who loses that- or even glorifies it- also becomes more likely to lose it in regards to reality as well. Fiction also has its impacts in the real world- and that's not to say all fiction or even most should be banned, or that those who glorify even fictional genocides are necessarily genocidal themselves- but there's certainly some degree of damage being done by all these works, if not to all those who consume them, to at least some small portion- whether the damage be the glorification or apologia of genocide and settler-colonialism, the vilification of "darker," "evil," "less human," or "less western-adjacent" races, etc...

I'd even go so far as to say that the portrayals of genocides, settler-colonialism, war crimes, and other atrocities like slavery in most western and Japanese media comes with a underlying political bent deeply rooted in reality- one sometimes intentional, other times the result of being deeply propagandized, but often simply the result of the natural desire to want to paint those they identify most with- western-adjacent or Japanese-adjacent civilization and characters- in a good light, to see themselves as the heroes rather than the products of the worst, vilest genocidal empires in history.

(Edit) Also, hell if I know the answer to such works that have such references- intended or otherwise- and implications in reality, and possibly on those who consume them. Personally I don't like arbitrary censorship, think in excess it winds up being dangerously counterproductive, and have a distaste for censorship even as a concept though I realize its absolute necessity (particularly for any societies seeking to defend themselves against the destabilizing, chaotic, and often even malevolent nature of western media- talking more about propaganda, proselytizing, etc) yet I wouldn't blame any country for banning or restricting works such as Naruto- or worse yet, Attack on Titan, for their apologia-adjacent (if not just straight up apologia, debatable) content, even if I might not enjoy any such hindrance.

Makes me think of Attack on Titan.

How do you feel when it's treated in a more sensible way by the narrative? For example, in Fire Emblem Path of Radiance

Also if you read the Silmarileon critically you'll notice that elves are basically settlers in whole constructions made by and for dwarves, who had been driven out. Several of their halls are passingly mentioned to have been built by dwarves, and there are even stories where jealous dwarves are portrayed as "greedy" for wanting the fruits of their labour for themselves.

one thing aout TES that’s always been a little concerning to me is how many of the backstories end in genocide and displacement.

Both these characters are beloved and their victims get the old “They deserved it” routine.

Warhammer fans that are too into the imperium and space marines give me the yikes.

Never ever asks TES nerd about Pelinal. Instant regret.

Always sorta seemed weird in “Middle Earth/ Shadow of War/Mordor” that you basically just wipe out EVERY uruk in the game possible. Even enemy uruks tell you to your face that you’ve wiped out all their friends. That being said, I never ever paid attention to the lore of Middle Earth or any of the games so idk why Talion and Calebrimbor are wilding

something something base superstructure

I'm not a big TES lore guy, but its always had pretty awful politics as far as I could tell. I don't even understand any of the references you made to the lore massacres but I'm not surprised.

Anyway, yeah, you're supposed to feel bad. I don't think the writers do, but you should.