this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2023
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I watched a video today talking about common talking points concerning how „the left has failed men“

I would argue F.D argues that while this is often cited as a critique on how „the Left“ is losing young men to right grifters like Tate, Peterson, etc.

He eventually argues that these misogynistic forces are not new and have only been thriving because of economic problems (capitalism yaaay) faced in the present.

As I really like this community I thought I give it a shot to post something. If I should try to give a broader summary of the video please feel free to tell me.

Thanks for reading :)

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[–] cybermass@lemmy.ca 51 points 1 year ago (4 children)

It also doesn't help that there's a portion of feminists who are super extreme and basically just use feminism as a cover for man hating, which tends to push away young boys from real feminism.

I think there are a lot of layers to it tbh, the right promises young boys all of these things (that are bullshit) and tells them they are #1 and they matter most while in general left people tend to say that men (even moreso cis white men) are the problem, which tends to alienate those people.

As a very left leaning cis white male it does feel extremely lonely, I am very depressed and never feel like my feelings are valid. I can't point to a boogeyman and say "that's the reason my life sucks" cause I'm the boogeyman and the only reason my life sucks is because I suck.

It's right wing option is just earlier mentally for boys to handle.

[–] cmbabul@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago

The upper classes are the boogeyman that made everyones life suck to varying degrees using the made up subdivisions they’ve designed to keep themselves in control. Blame those at the very top of the hierarchy, you may be higher up on it than others in more marginalized groups but unless you’re worth billions you still aint close to the top

[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I am very depressed and never feel like my feelings are valid. I can’t point to a boogeyman and say “that’s the reason my life sucks” cause I’m the boogeyman and the only reason my life sucks is because I suck.

At least that's the better attitude. If you are depressed and you cope by hating on whatever minority you get told to hate, it won't really cure your depression.

The only thing that helps is learning to love yourself and doing things, however small, to love yourself a bit more. It's very hard to do, and it wont reward you as instantaneously as drugs or cash. I hope you find that and wish you luck.

Alas the internet thrives on rage funneling. Hard to avoid, but very toxic. There's also an extreme left flavor of funnel, though.

[–] cybermass@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Thank you for the kind words, I'm working on it

Anything is better than hating someone else for no reason, I've got enough hate in my heart as is, and one of the best ways to make me (and most people) feel better is to spread love.

[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 10 points 1 year ago

GL bro, I know how hard it is, so keep on keeping on, you hear? Baby steps

As @akasazh says baby steps for sure and you got this!

I would argue however that there is a boogeyman that you can blame and that is capitalism, so there is always that.

Additionally as you have yourself mentioned just because we live in a partiachial society that doesn't mean that cis white men are always just winners, so I think the feeling of being overwhelmed and on your own and downtrodden by the system can be totally valid. Similarly to what @cmbabul mentioned, sure you can be a little bit more up the ladder but we are most likely all quite far away from the top :)

I hope that you feel empowered to reach out to others and connect. I am sure others share your sentiment. I think Lemmy has DMs so if you ever wanna just chat feel free to write me :)

Thank you for sharing!

[–] Hacksaw@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago

First, man hating feminists aren't feminists, they're just assholes who use acceptable rhetoric (feminism) as a cover for spreading hate and bigotry. Feminism is about equality and taking down patriarchal systems that harm everyone. Although it is female centric and tends to deal with aspects of the patriarchy that affect women and gender minorities. Feminism is VERY effective, and we're now in a situation where the harmful effects on men of patriarchal ideology are becoming more and more obvious. I believe men's lib is a GREAT banner for men to take down the patriarchy where they're the most affected. Working with feminism, LGBT+ and anti-racism we can ensure all harmful aspects of patriarchy are dismantled.

Second you're not To blame. You're not the patriarchy and you're certainly being hurt by it in meaningful ways. If you're not reinforcing the patriarchal systems that are harming you, you had nothing to do with the pain you feel.

You do have places to point the finger. The patriarchy and right wing ideology harms young men. Fiscal conservatives who gut education budgets, and force a focus on STEM at the expense of physical education, cooperative group sports, and recess time. Librarian educators who put all the physical activity budget into competitive sports so that "the strong rise and the weak perish". Pearl clutching conservatives who accuse male teachers of homosexuality, grooming, and pedophilia when they try to connect with students or introduce acceptance of LGBT+ ideology ruining the careers of male teachers and robbing boys of positive role models. Men and women who spread toxic masculinity and ridicule young boys who express their feelings or emotional needs. I could go on to show the ways right wing ideology robs boys and young men of their life satisfaction and societal prospects.

Therapy is great for personal growth. For growth within your friend group and family, you can also start looking at how toxic masculinity and regressive gender norms harm you and those around you. Most young men and women parrot these views but don't understand them. Occasional calm, polite, assertive explanations about the ideology they're spreading is enough for most people to realise what they're doing. You can improve your friend group over time, as well as help you encourage good supportive friendships and trim harmful ones. That will also help your emotional and mental well-being.

[–] Pointy_Dorito@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago

Just want to say, the fact that the right capitalizes on those topics makes me automatically cautious when I come across those discussions. Even reading through this community, I had to be defensive about getting hooked into something that is good on the surface but not so much underneath. My point is, its hard to talk about these topics now that its essentially associated with the manipulation tactics used by those influencers. Not sure how we can reclaim the positive while separating it from the negative.

[–] Veraticus@lib.lgbt 25 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I get it (and I appreciate you posting this) but I'm just not sure how this is "the Left's" fault.

To me, this argument feels similar to all the people who unironically claim all political problems are due to Democrats -- health care, student loan debt, queer rights... apparently never considering Republicans culpable or responsible. One side is the adults that can be blamed for faults and must be expected to do better, and the other side are children who are either ignored or, worse, applauded for doing the bare minimum.

Similarly, I think saying that "the Left has failed men" is a vast oversimplification. The Right is persuasive and doesn't need things like "rightness," "truth," or "morality" on their side. Saying that your problems are due to, say, women or gays is a much easier sell than actually addressing your problems by trying to work on yourself and the masculinity you can interact with.

[–] Moc@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yep it lacks a lot of nuance.

The right have also vertically integrated their problems into society. Capitalism and patriarchy are the problems, and the right also conveniently offer the solutions while reenforcing the causes of the problems.

The left’s solution to these problems is to try and change the system itself. Which is great, but does little to help people suffering under it.

The left has no easy solution to the right’s problems.

[–] valentinesmith@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I wholeheartedly agree but I would also argue that F.D. has a similar take at least the way I see it.

I would say he argues that while right grifters are nothing new they were usually not as successful and medially present as they are today. He attributes this to the fact that media engagement is the only metric that counts and that any sharing of a video leads to it being more present in the algorithm. Additionally he argues that in the past most men were able to eventually get a job and support themselves and a family and that with the rise of neoliberalism and worsening wages and inflation the rate of men who are able to do that has shrunk drastically leading to a rise of mental health illnesses but also suicides and other Deaths of Despair. Which have become a somewhat breeding ground for grifters to enrapture more men to their cause with their false promises.

Finally he argues that it is not in the interest to even try to appeal to men the same way the right does as it is - as you have yourself stated - fundamentally antithetical to our causes and beliefs. But that the focus should always be placed on changing the system and being active in our communities. And that changes to the system have to be understood as being beneficial to men as well (duh!).

So I think maybe my framing of his video was a bit too shallow, but thank you for posting your comment. I feel the same way especially in that "the left has failed men" has become an incredible oversimplification for a multilayered problem

[–] gapbetweenus@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago

The problem with modern right-wing and manosphere grifters is the internet, social media and algorithms giving them platform and reach - that they would never have gotten otherwise. Think Tate without internet. But with internet all you need is be entertaining and understand the algorithms - and you will get the reach to sell you ideas or junk.

[–] Hacksaw@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Politics, on the left and right, is about taking people's struggles and suffering and giving them purpose, meaning, and catalyzing them to action that will improve their situation and society.

The left used to be the party of the people, peaking in the new deal era of the 30's. After the great depression into the baby boomer era and the early 2000's, middle class white men and boys had it pretty good and lost interest in leftist ideology instead adopting to the "got mine" right wing libertarianism typical of the era. The left in this time focused on minorities and women who had a lot to gain from progressive socialist ideology and political action with great success in this front.

With this historical focus on minorities and women it's easy to forget that socialism is about the power of what can be achieved by working together instead of on your own. Young boys and men right now are crying out to join something and work together. Their suffering is caused by the patriarchy and their needs are well aligned with leftist ideology. If we capture them we have a chance at locking down DECADES of strong leftist and progressive policies and putting a full generation of gap from racism and bigotry. If we give up young boys and men to the right we're going to be locked into the current situation where we're barely able to keep fascism at bay.

[–] Hacksaw@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Just to give some examples, the suffering of young men and boys is broad and spread across many aspects of society from education

  • lower grades
  • lower post secondary education
  • cuts to physical education
  • reduced recess
  • lack of male mentorship in schools

To general success in society

  • toxic masculinity
  • Lower job prospects due to lower academic achievements
  • lack of social networks
  • difficulty maintaining friendships and support networks
  • inability to bond emotionally with peers due to repressive gender norms

To the problems we all share

  • lower incomes
  • need for better infrastructure
  • Need for cities with lower cost of living (walkable cities, public transit, affordable housing)
  • regulating corporate greed

I could go on, but the point of this list is to show just how well aligned the needs of boys and young men are with socialism and anti-patriarchal ideology. We could have better schools and a more loving and accepting human-centered society for all.

I frankly can't believe the right is winning this fight when they have NO SOLUTIONS TO OFFER AT ALL. Right now all the right is doing is saying "Yes you're suffering. It's society's fault, they repress you because they fear your 'innate superiority'. Come with us and we'll show you what you need to destroy to be happy and reclaim your rightful place" Then they point to all the leftist stuff and vaguely gesture that it's causing suffering without real supporting facts.

I honestly believe that victory is at hand, we just need to grasp it. The only way to lose is to ignore this massive opportunity.

[–] spaduf@slrpnk.net 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I would caution folks against commenting before watching the video. It is vital to the health of the community to make sure that we are building on the work posted and not uncritically rehashing the same reactionary ideas endlessly.

But maybe it’s also kind of my fault for not giving a better overview but I think I have learnt something for the next post.

Thank you for mentioning it :)

[–] spaduf@slrpnk.net 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Always love to see FD Signifier here. Overall solid takes on where things stand with a fair amount of historical context that is easily forgotten. The survey discussed early in the video has actually come up here before. Previous discussion can be found here

Uh thanks for linking it! I hadn’t seen the discussion!

I also liked the historical contexts :)

[–] gapbetweenus@feddit.de -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The left has failed conservative men who search for simple answers and like clear rules and hierarchies. But I'm not sure what left can offer them in the first place.

[–] Hacksaw@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No, the right is pulling boys and young men because they're the only ones that acknowledge that these boys are not thriving in modern society. The left still generally still thinks that young middle class and working class boys and men are prospering from the patriarchy and late stage capitalism. This hasn't been true for at least a few decades now.

Ironically patriarchy and right wing libertarianism is to blame for most of the problems of these young men so all we need to do is acknowledge their suffering and point them to the obvious socialist and left wing solutions to their problems.