Consciousness is as a convenient abstraction to explain the behaviour of human beings, but it doesn't really refer to anything real. As such, I think that the claim "consciousness is not an illusion" is technically correct but misleading, since it implies that consciousness exists.

Nagel's quote is extremely vague, since that ontological "to be" that he uses doesn't really mean anything.

Just the two cents of some materialistic nobody.

cogito, ergo sum

"Something exists. Beyond that I dunno." Somebody give that man some money.

If the universe is a simulation then conciousness could be considered an illusion to those outside the simulation. From an internal perspective it wouldnt be an illusion as it's the only thing that we experience.

However we have trouble even defining what counciousness is (an oversimplified quote from a philosopher doesn't cover it) so it seems pointless to make such speculative black and white statements about it.

"Credit to Sam Harris"

For something that's a well known saying by Rene Descartes?

"Cogito ergo sum" is exactly "consciousness is the only thing that can't be an illusion"

To claim that consciousness could be an illusion is a self-contradictory statement as consciousness is where illusions appear.

This sounds a lot like the "did the chicken come before the egg or the other way around" God is defined as the progenitor of existence, but if something preceded or even paralleled God before existence, then that would have to be the real God instead, based on the ontological definition. That was confusing, but I only mention it because if you could have a "consciousness" which perceives another consciousness as illusory, (like one I could download into a machine) then your own "awareness" is just as relatively illusory as the first one.

Like, the universe comes from God, and some would say that you can't have one without the other. And our perception of the world stems from a consciousness, and some would say you can't have one without the other. I just wanted to talk about the problems that arise when you form a recursive pattern with these foundational ideas. What is really behind consciousness? Can consciousness lie to you? Of course. Should you stop trusting your consciousness? Not completely, you would become a vegetable. Bed sores hurt.

I'm just kinda rambling, but thank you for posting this stimulating topic. This consciousness appreciates it.

But from what perspective?

If you take the perspective of someone inside the illusion/simulation, they could be simulated consciousness. But at the same time, from the outside, it isn't actually consciousness because it's all programmatic.

Now, it could be said that any sufficiently complex simulation that mimics consciousness within its parameters is creating consciousness, but it's still the illusion of consciousness rather than the actual thing. Which perspective is real?

Does realness, as in an absolute and objective reality, even matter for consciousness?

Me, I err on the side of any consciousness that is internally perceived as consciousness is real in any meaningful sense, even if it isn't objectively real.

If I dream, and other entities in my dream experience consciousness within themselves, I would call their consciousness real, even though they aren't real. It would be a created, artificial consciousness, it might even be a lesser form of consciousness, but it would still have a given value of realness.

Which, as a side note, dreams where you switch between multiple perspectives as different entities (not always people), and even have different thoughts as different entities are a fucking trip. They're rare, but so damn amazing to experience.

Maybe that kind of dream is creating consciousness, maybe it's perceiving some external consciousness. But it's still a discrete consciousness within itself.

In other words, if it's an illusion that the consciousness typing this is consciousness, then it is such a complete consciousness that it is the same as whatever external consciousness created it. It's subjectively real, and that matters more than any objective reality.

Consciousness is not necessary for illusions. Illusions are products of the senses and we know that unconscious things are subject to them. For example a radar glitch can produce an illusion of an object that isn’t really there. This occurs whether or not the radar operator is actually present in front of the radar screen, so it’s not an illusion of consciousness.

I also think it’s possible to have illusions about whether one is conscious or not. I have personally had fever dreams and found myself in a state where I was not sure whether I was asleep or awake. Similar things can be experienced under the effects of certain drugs, while other drugs can temporarily obliterate one’s entire sense of reality.

One thing we have established somewhat firmly is that the belief that consciousness is the source of decisionmaking is actually an illusion. In the lab we can detect unconscious mental processes attached to decisions which precede (by seconds) people’s conscious awareness of having made a decision.