this post was submitted on 21 Nov 2024

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rant Physical Media that isn't physical in the slightest (hexbear.net)

submitted 3 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) by hello_hello@hexbear.net to c/technology@hexbear.net

39 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Did people really watch movies/shows on DVDs that forced them to watch ads before even starting? Like you go to the store and pay for a movie disc and when you go home you have to sit through like 10 minutes of ads. Did people really have to watch ads before they could even watch the movie they paid for a copy of?!

𝙏𝙝𝙞𝙨 𝘿𝙞𝙨𝙣𝙚𝙮 𝘿𝙑𝘿 𝙞𝙨 𝙚𝙣𝙝𝙖𝙣𝙘𝙚𝙙 𝙬𝙞𝙩𝙝 𝘿𝙞𝙨𝙣𝙚𝙮’𝙨 𝙁𝙖𝙨𝙩𝙋𝙡𝙖𝙮. 𝙔𝙤𝙪𝙧 𝙢𝙤𝙫𝙞𝙚 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙖 𝙨𝙚𝙡𝙚𝙘𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣 𝙤𝙛 𝙗𝙤𝙣𝙪𝙨 𝙛𝙚𝙖𝙩𝙪𝙧𝙚𝙨 𝙬𝙞𝙡𝙡 𝙗𝙚𝙜𝙞𝙣 𝙖𝙪𝙩𝙤𝙢𝙖𝙩𝙞𝙘𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮. 𝙏𝙤 𝙗𝙮𝙥𝙖𝙨𝙨 𝙁𝙖𝙨𝙩 𝙋𝙡𝙖𝙮, 𝙨𝙚𝙡𝙚𝙘𝙩 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙈𝙖𝙞𝙣 𝙈𝙚𝙣𝙪 𝙗𝙪𝙩𝙩𝙤𝙣 𝙖𝙩 𝙖𝙣𝙮 𝙩𝙞𝙢𝙚. 𝙁𝙖𝙨𝙩 𝙋𝙡𝙖𝙮 𝙬𝙞𝙡𝙡 𝙗𝙚𝙜𝙞𝙣 𝙞𝙣 𝙖 𝙢𝙤𝙢𝙚𝙣𝙩…

Even on VHS there were ads (you could fast-forward through them though), and Blu-Ray also has ads despite being a "more modern" standard (it's not it's just HD-DVD with a different branding). Also you can't even use the disc without paying for a special disc reader that reads that shit for you (tbf a lot of devices came with a disc reader, but it still persisted despite the fact that USB storage was far cheaper and more efficient). You'd also have to navigate the terribly slow menus just to get to the part you were at.

Also if you buy a DVD/Blu-Ray whatever the fuck they call it nowadays in one part of the world and you travel to another, say you have family that lives in one country and you live in another, you can't play that disc because it's "region-locked."

Ok maybe it's region locked because different countries probably use different displays/standards or whatnot. NO! It's region locked for NO MATERIAL REASON besides "ensuring copyright distribution of the holder". This is even more mind-boggling for "blu-ray" the supposedly new format.

Also most Blu-Rays don't even come with all the goodies that normal DVDs had like behind the scenes/deleted scenes etc, so it's not like Blu-Rays have any other advantage besides being incompatible with your dvd player. "Just buy a PS3" yes I will buy the SONY product to play movies on a disc also created by SONY.

How is it considered physical media when the devices to play it are not being sold anymore? I'm sure there are a lot of Sony walkmans being sold nowadays. I can totally pick up a VHS player right now at the store and enjoy my treasure trove of vhs tapes that haven't already withered to dust.

People older than me (I was born after Al Gore lost the election) are having nostalgia for the "age of physical media" when really it was an age of physical bullshit compared to streaming bullshit. It's always capitalism, capitalism will burn down all art if it means that someone didn't get to skip paying for it. Here's what I say, just pay a couple a dollars a month for a VPN with port-forwarding and just torrent all your media. Your torrented file has done more for media preservation and archival then any DVD bullshit ever did. The only use for physical media is to digitize it and share it.

The bootlegged Cinderella movie sold in the Global South has done more for media preservation than Disney ever has. A seedbox in Russia is more of a art library compared to any video store.

Don't get me started on video games. Where every generation of devices there's a new standard and new way to do things. Nothing says media preservation like buying a disc from a store and then waiting an hour for your device to download updates online.

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[–] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 20 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I remember one of my friends buying a game for playstation something and we went over to watch it and it was a loading bar for downloading 143 gigabytes. Idk what was actually on the disc

[–] comrade_pibb@hexbear.net 16 points 3 days ago (1 children)

A license key and some fancy launcher artwork

[–] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 9 points 3 days ago

Insert grapes of wrath speech here

[–] ChaosMaterialist@hexbear.net 14 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I am a physical media enjoyer, but the real answer is DRM-stripped digital copies. If you know where to look, the High Seas have digital copies of the physical disks, and I have tools for removing all the DRM and encryption. I have physical copies of many movies mostly because it is convenient for non-technical people and very little maintenance for me. I knew the writing was on the wall back when I got my physical copy of Helf-Life 2, all 9 physical disks, and none of them could install without Steam. That was 2004.

[–] Chronicon@hexbear.net 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

the thing is most people don't have the money, time, desire, knowledge, etc to keep a digital archive intact for 20, 30, 40 years by keeping multiple backups and being diligent, but similar longevity is often achievable with physical media just by chucking it in a box in the closet (obviously it doesn't survive a house fire or whatever that way, but hard drive failure, accidental deletion, etc. are far more common than physical destruction like that)

I mean I know how to run a server and I know how to automate backups and do all kinds of stuff like that and I still don't have good data practices

For mass media IMO the lesson is to sail the high seas early and often, and if you have anything rare or hard to find in your collection, share with the class. For personal or sentimental stuff, I've heard worse ideas than stuffing those files on DVDs and sticking them in the closet, though if they are large files there's probably better alternatives

[–] rafflesia@hexbear.net 18 points 3 days ago (1 children)

This has always made me mad. Like you say, at least with VHS you could fast forward but on modern systems you just get the little smarmy 🚫⏩ symbol that fills me with an unbridled rage while suffering through ancient advertisements. Thank goodness they preserved an unskippable ad for Disney's Cars, I'll be sure to head out to theaters in 2006 to see it.

[–] hello_hello@hexbear.net 10 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

A scratched CD is the most unwatchable piece of media ever created. Once that disc player starts buffering it's all over.

Sure lets keep selling this garbage format to people because law and order. Totally not like we could have saved so much waste if it were a USB system instead.

Like even if we needed to put DRM to appease the capitalist gods of art, a USB that you plug in at the store to receive a movie is far better than having to sell so many plastic cases, paper covers, and manufactured discs that if dropped will be lost forever.

People don't give a shit so we can have nerds in their basement with shelves of DRM'd bullshit that'll get crushed when the regularly scheduled climate change disaster happens.

[–] imogen_underscore@hexbear.net 7 points 3 days ago (1 children)

degradation is just as much of a concern with flash media, just takes a different form. + with all your data centralized like that, your shit is more at risk.

[–] Philosoraptor@hexbear.net 3 points 3 days ago

Plus, it's really only relatively recently that flash and other solid state media storage density approached (or surpassed) the density of the best commercially available optical media. BlueRay as a format was invented in 2005, when a nice USB thumb drive would have been like 512 megabytes.

[–] thethirdgracchi@hexbear.net 16 points 3 days ago (1 children)

The broad strokes of your rant I agree with, but you can a) buy region free DVD and blu-ray players very easily these days that totally bypass all of the bullshit copyright region locking shit, b) you can just press the menu button on your remote to skip all the ads (if the discs even have them). Most blu-rays these days don't have any ads at all though, especially for any movies more niche than like Hollywood stuff. And c) digital hoarding is great, but large hard drives especially fail quite randomly, and then you're shit out of luck. A blu-ray will last for decades with no issues; after a decade of uptime an HDD or SSD is probably toast with no prospect of recovery. And that's all to say that Blu-ray quality for films is genuinely really good. Sure, you can get that in a hard drive but for the full blu-ray quality you're talking 20GBs+ for a single film. 4k gets even crazier. I have a 12TB hard drive filled with movies, but I make sure to have backups of it as well and often really obscure shit is hard to find online, much easier to just buy the blu-ray.

[–] hello_hello@hexbear.net 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

That's true, but there also exists the problem of no one besides SONY/Blu-ray can actually produce their own blu-ray discs (afaik, there's probably a reverse-engineering project i don't know about), with digital storage you can always use backups remotely or other techniques (+ always you can use torrent trackers).

It's just such a farce that this is an issue in the first place. I certainly didn't know about any of these strategies growing up since my family just bought discs from the store near us and we played them on our PS2.

Media encoding has gotten really optimized nowadays (NVENC, VA-API, etc) so the space issue isn't a done deal.

[–] ComradeVark@hexbear.net 4 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I'm not sure what you mean about producing blu-ray discs - do you mean pressing the same kinds of discs movies come on? Sony isn't the only one, there are many, though the number is constantly shrinking. Blu-ray IS digital storage. It's easy to back up discs to hard disks. Going the other way, anyone can burn a BD-R, but of course that isn't quite the same as replication. But I don't think it really matters. In most cases keeping copies on hard disks and doing digital distribution is the better solution.

Encoding has improved massively, but just because it's possible to compress a movie to shit so that it's a 3GB file doesn't mean you should. Film is an art form, after all. Maybe a film is better on VHS, maybe it's better in 80GB 4K so you can still see the film grain - either way the presentation quality matters.

[–] ComradeVark@hexbear.net 14 points 3 days ago (1 children)

You're right. It could be much better, but I also think you've got some confusion/lack of information on some of these issues. If for nothing else than to alleviate some of your suffering, let me explain.

ads: these are exceptions, not the rule. most discs do not have ads, fortunately. I'm curious what Blu-Ray you've seen ads on (Disney again?) - I don't think I've ever encountered a BD with ads.
players: Improvements in disc technology meant improvements to the players were also needed. Not much that could have been done there. Blu-Ray players are backwards compatible with DVD. Any thrift shop in a moderately sized city is going to have a whole shelf of players. There's no reason not to buy a BD player over DVD at the prices they go for. 4K players are a little more difficult, but once in a while refurb/used models can be had for good prices. It should last - it's unlikely we're going to see another new physical format. It's surprising that we even got triple-layer BD-100 discs for 4K.
region-locking: Yeah this sucks, but it can be bypassed. It's possible to buy region-free DVD/BD/4K players. Some labels have region-free discs, but they are an exception. ALL 4K DISCS should be region-free, it's one of the licensing requirements.
special features: You're wrong. Blu-Rays have lots of special features. If the DVD had them, the Blu-Ray version certainly does. Most of the ones that don't are not worth caring for. Streaming services sometimes have behind-the-scenes documentaries, but not the same extras discs have.

Torrenting is a great way to go, but as you seem to know, the physical copies are where most digital copies come from. Physical copies are better source material than anything streaming, and BD are better sources than almost any other (sometimes color timing or other nit-picky things can be better on DVD/VHS/LaserDisc editions). BD has support for higher video resolutions, lossless audio, more subtitle formats, more and multiple aspect ratios, and other smaller features. Some of these might not matter to you, some should. If you've only seen a pan&scan copy of your favorite movie and not the original aspect ratio, you're missing out.

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)

You're wrong about the special features. There's plenty of Blu ray releases that omit special features. Especially shows

[–] ComradeVark@hexbear.net 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Perhaps my wording is not quite right in my post: I'm not arguing that all BD releases include special features, but that it isn't a fault of the format. BDs absolutely have other perks. Most BDs, even TV shows, have the DVD special features copied over. If the BD release doesn't have them, then yes, imo it's probably not worth it.

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 1 points 3 days ago

Okay, so it's just most the movies and shows I have both dvd and Blu Rays of that cut the special features. The only things I have that I'm sure do contain all the dvd features is Jurassic Park and Star Trek TNG. The original mad max movies, the few trek movies I got doubles of on Blu ray, Babylon 5 cut all the special features and Twin Peaks got rid of most of the dvd features and swapped em for new ones. Almost every Blu ray I have that I also have/had the dvd of is very bare bones in comparison

[–] Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 7 points 2 days ago

Yo ho, haul together...

[–] KnilAdlez@hexbear.net 10 points 3 days ago (3 children)

You just made me imagine a world where you buy a blu-ray and it downloads an update to the movie, changing the ending. A vile thought.

I think the real challenge of media preservation is the fact that every high-capacity storage medium decays far too quickly. Indeed even if capitalism didn't require the nonsense like region blocking, there would still be no incentive to not only keep the same formats, but also continually make perfect copies of original masters. To that end it becomes the peoples' duty to get the highest quality available and use technology like torrenting to constantly keep a version in circulation.

But even then, it's quite likely that the media will be lost to time eventually. Unless we start drilling the compressed binary into stone.

[–] hello_hello@hexbear.net 7 points 3 days ago

changing the ending. A vile thought.

I'm sure they're already doing this live on streamed media, but with how much they love engineering malware they could probably do this as well.

Shadow libraries are the only way that capitalist hegemony over human creation is thwarted. More people should be aware of P2P and less on being a Good(TM) person.

If selling discs weren't profitable then they still wouldn't do it in 2024 for new movies, there are enough people earnestly buying them and the myth of preservability.

[–] blobjim@hexbear.net 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

There are magnetic tape backup systems used a lot in the server world. I think they'll continue to be used and manufactured and improved into the future. You can google magnetic tape storage and find articles are all sorts of stuff about it. I remember that GitHub occasionally backs up the entire contents of GitHub to magnetic tape and stores it in some remote location as a PR thing (and I guess as an actual backup too).

I guess the question I have is whether every company out there has good backup practices for all of their data. And whether there could be a scenario where the backups would become inaccessible.

It also feels really sketchy to rely on things like archive.org to back up various kinds of public domain media. There should be more done to back up and make things accessible and easily replicable.

[–] KnilAdlez@hexbear.net 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Magnetic tape only lasts 30 years, and that's pushing it. It is an option (if you host data on AWS, they offer a magnetic tape storage option) but in the end, a lot of that data will be lost in our lifetimes.

[–] ComradeVark@hexbear.net 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

This has been done to streaming versions, but thankfully it's generally not possible with discs. The blu-rays you buy are pressed, not burned. They are read-only. Changes are only possible with re-releases, and this has happened. For example, the Criterion edition of Miller's Crossing is a different cut from what you would have seen in the theater, though they don't make that very clear.

[–] KnilAdlez@hexbear.net 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Store the change on the Blu-ray player's storage. Or, in this alternate world they simply design them with this in mind from the beginning.

[–] blobjim@hexbear.net 5 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I completely forgot about watching movie previews before watching a movie on a DVD. My parents like watching those and I always complain.

[–] Mousy@hexbear.net 8 points 3 days ago (2 children)

The whole collecting physical media thing is just phantom nostalgia and consumerism masquerading as a hobby.

[–] hello_hello@hexbear.net 8 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Exactly what I was thinking but I couldn't put it in words.

Seeing so many users online proudly display their collections of DRM bullshit (whether that be movie cases or Steam libraries) is tiring.

[–] imogen_underscore@hexbear.net 13 points 3 days ago (1 children)

physical movies and steam games are not remotely in the same category as relates to ownership.

[–] hello_hello@hexbear.net 5 points 3 days ago

You're right, but I'm still annoyed :(

[–] imogen_underscore@hexbear.net 7 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

i strongly disagree, it seems to be a natural response to the growing cost and unreliability of streaming type setups. people just like watching movies/playing games or whatever and want to own shit instead of just rent a license to use it that can be revoked whenever, that's the main reason. saying it's "just" what you said is very reductive.

[–] Mousy@hexbear.net 6 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Hoarding dvds, vinyl or games isn't any less ownership than torrenting because there's some sort of psychical tangibly and it's often just a worse and more cumbersome experience overall.

[–] imogen_underscore@hexbear.net 7 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

agree with the first part, second part it just depends. it's often a better experience too, just depends on hardware setup like how good your internet is, do you have the tech know how for something like a plex server or do you just want simplicity. just saying there are use cases for physical blu rays, they are still very popular for a reason. i torrent all my shit but I still see the appeal of the simplicity of a physical collection. when I run into annoying plex bugs for the fifth time in a day it makes me wish i just had the disk. + public trackers have been getting worse and worse and a lot of people don't want to fuck around with making subtitles work on torrented media which can be a huge pain. i would say that blu ray takes away a lot of hassle, sure it's at a monetary cost but it's worth it for a lot of people.

[–] Mousy@hexbear.net 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I don't have a plex server but for me i just don't have the money to blow it all on physical goods that 90 percent of the time are just going to sit on a shelf. To me that's just waste

[–] imogen_underscore@hexbear.net 4 points 3 days ago

i mean me either but i see the appeal. if i had the money it's for sure something i would do. i understand you though, it's fair.

[–] buckykat@hexbear.net 5 points 3 days ago

Just pirate everything and you'll really own it

[–] D61@hexbear.net 6 points 3 days ago (1 children)

There'd be advertisments for other movies and/or TV shows. I do remember there being advertisements hawking whatever the next gen home movie media was moving to (or trying to move to).

I haven't watched a DVD or Blu-Ray in so long that I'd forgotten about the desperate sounding advertisements for "hey, did you know you can download this movie that you are currently watching on another device..." that I'd imagine only the tiniest sliver of people watching the DVD with that advertisement even attempted.

[–] hello_hello@hexbear.net 4 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

The advertisements were a nightmare on every disc my family owned. They were too long so even if you started preparing snacks it'd still be going. And make sure not to press that skip button on the remote or else it'll PLAY THE ENTIRE THING AGAIN.

The same reason I despise ever going to a movie theater, the ads are so long (and incredibly loud) that it punishes you for coming on time. Small children need to have their eardrums blown to know that they're watching the movie in IMAX.

Like, streaming, for all the bullshit it brings, absolutely deserved to kill off any physical media company that pulled this shit for so long.

[–] PaulSmackage@hexbear.net 5 points 3 days ago

And then there's me:

[–] homhom9000@hexbear.net 5 points 3 days ago

I had a blu ray player that refused to play disc it couldn't verify on the internet. The whole point of blu ray for me was bypassing region code locks for international media plus a lot of my media did not have whatever cert it was looking for because it was old. Useless machine

[–] schlongjohnson@hexbear.net 4 points 3 days ago

how else am i going to watch my movies when the power goes out?