this post was submitted on 18 Feb 2025
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A decision to negotiate over the heads of the Ukrainians would reveal just how Trump sees Ukraine and Europe.

Archived version: https://archive.is/newest/https://theconversation.com/ukraine-isnt-invited-to-its-own-peace-talks-history-is-full-of-such-examples-and-the-results-are-devastating-250049


Disclaimer: The article linked is from a single source with a single perspective. Make sure to cross-check information against multiple sources to get a comprehensive view on the situation.

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[–] Gobbel2000@programming.dev 62 points 1 month ago (3 children)

The article only summarizes it shortly, but the parallels to the Munich Agreement from 1938 are really scary.

Hitler's aim was to take over all of Czechoslovakia by breaking it apart. The subject of the Munich Agreement was the Sudetenland, the region bordering Germany. Before there were some votes and local political forces expressing the wish of the German minority in the Sudetenland to create an independent state (See the parallels with DNR, LNR and Crimea). This was used by Hitler to justify taking over the region. Suddenly it wasn't about independence anymore, but about inclusion into Germany.

The Czechoslovakian government in Prague obviously hated the idea, but they were not invited to the talks in Munich. Only afterwards were they made aware of the decision that would be imposed on their nation. Who was invited was fellow fascist Mussolini from Italy, as well as France and UK, who gave in and signed this agreement, giving international support to Germany just taking over parts of neighboring nations.

Their reasoning was, if they were to disagree, Hitler would assert his will by force and take Czechoslovakia militarily, starting a large European war (that is also the reason Prague was forced to accept the decision: the alternative was a war they could never win, they could not count on any outside help). This was the so-called appeasement policy by the UK. They bought "peace" in exchange for territories they didn't own but felt the right to decide over. We all know how this heavily-priced peace turned out. At most it gave the allied forces one more year to prepare for WWII.

[–] Gsus4@mander.xyz 7 points 1 month ago

I see a better parallel with the partition of Poland in Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with these talks. The Munich Agreement was the Minsk agreements and letting russia have Crimea.

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[–] DicJacobus@lemmy.world 39 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

This isn't a peace deal, this is a conspiracy. Ukraine has zero obligation to accept any of this. However they will have to start making considerations about a Polish Underground state type of ordeal. This fighting is not going to stop for a decade more. The region is going to resemble fucking Afghanistan.

. Russia has no intention of stopping and they might as well tell MAGA to go fuck themselves, and Europe better get ready to join.

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[–] MedicPigBabySaver@lemmy.world 30 points 1 month ago (2 children)
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[–] blady_blah@lemmy.world 22 points 1 month ago (1 children)

This isn't a peace agreement, this is a rehabilitate Russia agreement.

The whole goal is for Trump to run cover for Putin and say" if you do this we'll remove all the sanctions", all the while not changing the ground war at all. (And probably throw sanctions on Ukraine at the same time).

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[–] pyre@lemmy.world 20 points 1 month ago (1 children)

there isn't enough rope in the world for the reckoning that's warranted.

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[–] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 18 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

It isn't a peace deal.

It is a deal to bully someone else together.

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[–] Gammelfisch@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Time for Germany to build nuclear weapon stockpiles. Fuck this shit with the USA and Russia. Their Saudi Arabia meeting was another 2018 Helsinki shitshow.

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[–] frezik@midwest.social 13 points 1 month ago (1 children)

AP headline: "Russia and US agree to work toward ending Ukraine war in a remarkable diplomatic shift"

They mention that Ukraine isn't even at the table several paragraphs in. Jolly.

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[–] Hupf@feddit.org 13 points 1 month ago (1 children)

History is full of such examples

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[–] Opinionhaver@feddit.uk 9 points 1 month ago (5 children)

Zelenskyy has stated that he is not willing to negotiate with Putin as well as that they will not settle for less than getting back all the occupied territories including Crimea. There is no peace deal to be made with these terms as the starting point.

[–] sleep_deprived@lemmy.dbzer0.com 82 points 1 month ago (17 children)

Giving away conquered territory in hopes of peace is called appeasement. Historically, it doesn't go well.

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[–] zaphod@sopuli.xyz 33 points 1 month ago (8 children)

What's the point of ceding part of your country for peace, if you get invaded again a few years later? That's not peace.

[–] nednobbins@lemm.ee 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

There isn't. There's also no point in continuing a strategy that clearly favors Russia (they're the ones steadily gaining ground every month).

The better strategy (which Trump almost certainly won't entertain) is to negotiate a peace now and use that time to build a robust defense-in-depth at the current border.

It will be ugly because it will turn miles of border into a dangerous DMZ. But Russia already demonstrated that it works. Dig a crap ton of trenches. Build out bunkers and anti-tank traps. Ignore Geneva a bit and mine the crap out of the area. Lots of surveillance. Probably some experimental infrastructure to make it easier to deploy drones.

That would also need to be coupled with commitments to build out munitions plants in Western Ukraine; primarily artillery shells and drones.

This will work because it dramatically raises the cost of each meter of ground gained by opposing forces. Ukraine can get defensive infrastructure that they can cheaply operate, without significant external assistance.

The downside is that Ukraine would loose parts of its territory. The upside is that it has a far better chance of keeping the territory it still has.

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[–] jagged_circle@feddit.nl 8 points 1 month ago (8 children)

Zelenskys voice doesn't matter. Thats the point. What matters is the people funding him with money and weapons.

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