The problem is more about Reddit not giving a fuxk to the users who have made the platform. They obviously know in advance what 3rd party apps and tools people have been using. If they are really keen on keeping the matter civil, Reddit could have granted them free or reasonable access but it prefers not to. I think this is pretty telling.

There would have been no outrage if Reddit valued its users. If they came out and said they were going to start charging (a reasonable amount) for API access but were giving developers until the end of the year to prepare no one would have batted an eye.

Most would probably migrate to the Reddit app for free. Some would just start paying to use the app of their choice and we’d have moved on.

Reddit showed their true colors which was a big f you to the free labor and free content producers of their platform.

I would’ve paid $5-$10 a month to Apollo had this all been handled professionally. Instead I’ve deleted Reddit , fired up an rss feed app and I’m also here now. There’s a handful of communities I haven’t found a suitable replacement for but I’ll live.

If their official app and "new" reddit layout ain't shit there won't be so many users using paid 3rd party apps to begin with. Fix your product instead of force killing competitors.

I really don't think that 3rd party apps were anything but collateral damage. I think his real goal is to try and capitalize off of AI training.

He clearly saw these companies using reddit data to train AI for like no money and got upset.

As of 3 weeks ago, I would've been willing to:

• Pay for reddit premium in order to use a third party app.
• Stuck around even without a third party app, using only the old.reddit interface for as long as that was going to work with Reddit Enhancement Suite.
• Allowed ads to get through my ad blocker on Reddit.
• Kept my old comment/link history accessible on the site.
• Continue to use reddit.

Now I'm basically unwilling to do any of those things. The interviews they gave up through the first 2 days of the blackout made me pledge not to actually pay reddit any money (and I've paid for gold from when it was first announced, as a "charter member," till when they decided to dramatically increase the price in exchange for a complicated "premium" offering).

And since then, the hamfisted way they've dealt with mods and protests are getting me to leave the site early, too, and going out of my way to delete my old comments and posts that actually added information to the site, plus deleting or otherwise breaking the URLs of my content that have been linked from anywhere on reddit (whether in a post by me or reposted by someone else).

What I actually want is to be able to pay Reddit or Google or whoever it is a fair amount of money, say the amount they'd make by showing me a reasonable number of ads, plus a bit more. Say 10% more. In exchange for making more money from me than they would with ads, they would let me use old.reddit.com, or a third party app and not show me any ads.

I get an ad free service, Reddit gets more money than they would have before.

I figure that the amount would be easily less than $10 per year.

They would have to show something like this: at the end of each month, they tell me that I consumed so much of Reddit. They would have shown an ad every 25 posts, at $0.0005 per ad impression. So my payment for the month will be $x.

Didn't reddit used to be profitable? I think we should start by asking what decisions they made that reduced their profitability. Is it the video player that nobody asked for? Deciding to self-host images? Developing an app that nobody wants to use? It seems to me like they put themselves in this position.

While essentially killing off 3rd party apps is disappointing, I could’ve understood and been willing to switch to the official app and maybe even pay monthly for no ads and more features.

What made me leave is how poorly Huffman and the company treated the developers, moderators, and users.

For developers:

• Reddit went back on their word about no API cost changes this year
• Lied about making the API cost reasonable
• Gave developers very little time to adjust
• Treated developers and their apps as freeloaders instead of as a source of growth for Reddit when they didn’t even have an app yet
• Blatantly slandered Apollo’s developer

For moderators:

• Reddit treated moderators as if their input didn’t matter despite providing free labor for the site
• Framed them as being power hungry for disagreeing and protesting Reddit’s decisions

For users:

• Reddit treated users as if their input didn’t matter despite Reddit being a user-generated content site
• Treated their contributions to the site as Reddit’s property, not their own
• Essentially said users are just a bunch of whiney babies who are powerless, have no willpower, and will visit the site no matter what we do

Also, even besides Huffman showing his true colors as being a total asshole, it just makes Reddit’s poor leadership SO evident. How do you become such a popular site with free content and free moderators, and still can’t make money? How do you manage to turn a great Reddit third-party app into a buggy mess of an official app? Why are you constantly prioritizing what you think users want instead of just listening to them? And now you essentially just told all of us: “fuck you, I own you and your content, and I am entitled to to make money off of you.”

I would be happy to pay a fair price to remove ads and gain access to 3rd party apps. They should just bake that into the Reddit Gold perks.

I haven't heard anyone say that they're upset because Reddit needed money. Actually I've heard more understanding people, they wanted Reddit to stay alive and were willing to possibly say yes to subscriptions/ad based content.

But spez completely shit the bed on the entire thing. Giving them the crazy high prices, the incredibly short deadline, hiding the pricing for those 2 months, then trying to blame it on AI, and just everything. Yes, if they had a level headed leader at the front of their corporation I could very well see myself preparing to pay a couple bucks a month to Reddit to get a good experience, they could get their "Residual Income".

Instead he had to go all megalomaniac and demand everyone bend to his will - and I left permanently.

I personally would be a paying subscriber to Apollo right now if Reddit had announced they were going to charge a reasonable amount of money for the API. I totally understand how a massive website like that and all the servers and storage required must have cost a fortune. Paying to avoid ads is cool with me… cutting off my access to the best way to use Reddit is not.

I think it is within the company's right to revenue increasing opportunities. That said I view the slandering of the Apollo creator as the turning point. It was very poor taste and their communication around this has been horrendous. It kick started the migration to the fediverse and a critical mass has adopted it. So now there is no good reason to go back to Reddit even if they reverse their decisions. Heck, had there been a different stimulant to fediverse adoption without any missteps from Reddit, I would still have transitioned my usage to a system where the users are more in control.

I can’t blame reddit for wanting to be profitable,either. They just went about it in the worst, most confrontational way possible. They insulted the people who gave reddit all of its content, and alienated their core users.

Even if Huffman had been nicer about it, though, no amount of diplomacy would make up for the fact that their API pricing is ridiculous. Nor would it make their complete inflexibility and stubbornness more palatable. The arrogance and disrespect they’ve shown is astounding. Trying to “fix” that with pretty words, but without actually changing their plans, would be like trying to polish a turd.

I think there would still be a massive protest. The only difference would be the tone.

I was upset to lose Apollo but hearing that they where going to exclude some apps for accessibility I thought to just move there. My main issue is ads. Just any alternative to avoid the ads on their app was gonna be good for me…. Then they started completely mishandeling the protest exercising their technical authority over the subs and content and i got to lemmy real quick.

I used to subscribe to Reddit for the ad-free experience when I was a mobile web user. They kept making mobile web worse and worse and didn’t listen to user feedback after a point and made it so unusable I unsubscribed then found Apollo after refusing apps for years. Only been on Apollo maybe a year and now they’re destroying that. I’ve tried their app and it is a battery hog (spyware is my guess), works like crap and has too few features that I want .

There’s a few communities that I will miss over there but other than that I’m very excited for the fediverse and hope meta and bots don’t kill this platform before it gets going.

In a nutshell:

Imagine if you own a nice Jaguar - keep it in your garage and let the neighbours borrow it to go to the shops. Now you need to do some maintenance, and make up for losses in your taxi service (which might cost $2 per km) so you wanna price this as a premium service. ... so you could charge them $5 takeout fee plus $1 per km, or (if you're greedy) just go for $5 per km.

What Reddit did is say 'Fuck you, you want to use it, you pay $100 per km or fuck off - we don't care'.

The amount of money Reddit makes for you getting advertisements is actually less than $1 per km... The same occurs with YouTube. If you actually click to donate, then you can pay enough to cover thousands of hours of advertisements in one small swipe.

What we need is MICROpayments spread across a wider user-base to balance the ad-supported platform, and then people will accept that small payments are better.

That IS what happened, in april.

What happened this month is that the API users (aka 3rd party authors) expressed their dismay at trying to work with reddit's announced changes or getting any movement out of reddit that would allow them to continue.

If Huffman came out and said this was a revenue move right off would everyone be as upset as they are? Are people upset because Huffman completely mishandled the move or because they got their ad free experience turned off? If Reddit had an app the same quality as Apollo only with ads, would they be OK with it. I've only used Apollo so I can't speak to the other apps.

The initial spark definitely came from Reddit's clear backstabbing of 3rd party developers with the API change. There was no attempt to work with developers, just to remove them indirectly.

This being particularly bad when 3rd party developers were basically holding up most power-users, most moderators, and basically anybody who actually needed accessibility features (seems like Reddit's never heard of blind people by the way they made their app).

When you combine that with the catastrophic mishandling of the situation with that incredibly awkward AMA, the internal leaks, and the accusations towards Apollo Dev, it made it incredibly obvious that Reddit wasn't acting in good faith...

That's really what started the shit storm that's still raging now with the blackouts, subs and mods being blackmailed, subs converting to NSFW, the John Oliver stuff. It's all because of how badly Reddit mishandled the situation. It's almost like they forgot their website is mostly ran by the same volunteers they were screwing over.

However, I think you are right to an extent that if Reddit had taken the time to add accessibility and moderation features into their apps, and just improved the interface in general instead of just focusing on sucking the most money and telemetry out of their audience possible, then things would never have advanced as far as they did...

But I also think that's one mighty big "what if" because if they would have had the foresight to do any of that, they would've had the foresight to not mishandle everything else as badly as they did either.

I think there's a lot they could have done better. They could have injected ads into the API feeds directly so they could still get revenue and make it part of the terms that a client can't remove them, and offer a paid version of the API that doesn't have ads. That could work with the clients who could then continue to offer a free ad supported version or a subscription that removes them with Reddit getting a cut. I would have been totally understanding of that and reddit could have gotten a ton of subscription revenue by leveraging the existing distribution channels.

They're a company, they have to pay the bills, I get that, but they went over the line with their deception, greed, and hunger for power. This wasn't just about making money, it's also about control. This was all just an underhanded move to kill 3rd party apps without outright banning them. They want total control so they can continue to make ui decisions that make then more money at the expense of the user experience with their users not having an alternative client to go to. They clearly don't have any respect for their users so why would I use them?

All the drama and pisspoor management by spez aside, ultimately the way I used reddit is through RiF. To me, that's reddit. I can't stand their official app and their official website is horrendous.

They forced my app to close down so I guess that's that.

I stopped using RiF and consequently reddit in protest. I held out hope this was a shitty negotiation tactic by Reddit and they'd eventually back off somewhat. But they've tripled down on it.

This forced me to reevaluate my relationship with the platform and I decided to check out Lemmy kbin and mastodon. I also checked out some old forums I frequented before reddit took over.

I reinstalled a newsreader and set up RSS feeds for my favorite things.

Basically, I'm realizing I don't need reddit as much as I thought I did. I actually have enjoyed the fediverse,beehaw in particular, more. I never used Twitter but mastodon has really great content and engagement as well.

I'm not saying I'd never go back to Reddit. I probably would if RiF somehow survived, but reddits lost its luster for me and I don't trust it anymore. So why waste time actively participating there so I can have the rug pulled from under me again?

Reddit may not see a mass exodus like Digg or Myspace, but it's been poisoned and over time the rot will set in and it will fester. This will be the moment people point to as the turning point.

Like others have said, there are multiple factors at play:

1. The official reddit app sucks in terms of basic usability
2. The offiical reddit app has poor accessibility
3. The official website, while generally well optimised for mobile, keeps forcing users to use the reddit app - see point 1
4. Reddit is trying to position themselves as an ad company (see here for one user's explanation), so it's in their benefit to get people using the mobile version where they can hoover up sensitive information for serving ads.
5. Reddit are trying to grow their ad platform. Third party apps interfere with that. Reddit understandably wants to kill them off.
6. Reddit are aware that people like third party apps and people don't like their official app.

Now, if Reddit had been honest and transparent throughout the entire process and just killed off the APIs without charging for it and gave the straightforward explanation, I think people would be sad as they are emotionally invested in their apps, and there would be some people who would go for good. But a lot more people would come back to Reddit - let alone seek alternatives like Lemmy, KBin, Tildes, etc.

What has happened is that the CEO has tried to make apps "the villain" and reddit the "poor little company" - sort of like DARVO but for 3rd party apps, so they could paint their official Reddit as the "wholesome" one.

Except the reddit community is large and pretty smart - technically and legally too. Receipts were kept, the CEO was exposed for his blatant lies, and then he has become incredibly unhinged and angry that things haven't gone his way, giving incredibly aggressive interviews. And the Reddit community notices, because whenever Reddit is in the news, it's very rarely for a good reason. The CEO was shown to be wearning no clothes after all.

I've seen Reddit go through drama, but never quite like this. It's quite incredible and astonishing how one person could fuck up a transition this badly. Spez has repeated that the Automod is going to be killed, but given the blatant lies that came before, it's no wonder why folks aren't trusting him on his word. He's made his bed, he has to lie in it.