this post was submitted on 09 Aug 2023

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184

Atomic bombing of Japan was NOT necessary to end WWII. US gov't documents admit it (youtu.be)

submitted 1 year ago by AYJANIBRAHIMOV@lemmygrad.ml to c/genzedong@lemmygrad.ml

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‘US government documents admit that the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not necessary to end WWII. Japan was on the verge of surrendering. The nuclear attack was the first strike in Washington's Cold War on the Soviet Union. Ben Norton reviews the historical record.’

(page 2) 40 comments

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[–] ihaveibs@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 year ago

My favorite contradiction about this is how westerners engage in the most ridiculous purity politics about violence but when it comes to dropping bombs that can literally end humanity and destroy the planet on hundreds of thousands of civilians, apparently that is justifiable.

[–] American_Communist22@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 1 year ago

The Bomb didn't kill the Empire, Stalin did

stalin chad

[–] GrumpigPoopBalls@hexbear.net 10 points 1 year ago

not to continue shilling the based children's book ive talked about either on this account or one of my other accounts that i lost the login for before, but Addicted to War talks about this (in addition to laying it out clearly that a literal first grader could understand it that the U.S. military is just three oil/fruit/whatever commodity companies in a trench coat)

[–] pisstoria@hexbear.net 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Most of the propaganda which says Japan wouldn't have surrendered is entirely based on orientalism.

[+] StraightIanFidance@hexbear.net -10 points 1 year ago (9 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] Vncredleader@hexbear.net 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yeah we can't be totally sure until afterwards, but the same is true for letting the peace process actually be attempted as planned. Hindsight works both ways, and given the US admitted it was doing it just to intimidate the Soviets, and the alternative was sitting around for a bit longer and negotiating till that ran dry it is clearwhat the wrong choice was

[–] silent_water@hexbear.net 7 points 1 year ago

letting the peace process actually be attempted as planned

Japan was already attempting to surrender for months before the bombs were dropped.

[–] StraightIanFidance@hexbear.net 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah we can't be totally sure until afterwards, but the same is true for letting the peace process actually be attempted as planned.

In war, the neutral position is to assume that the enemy won't surrender. Why are you arbitrarily putting the "correct" time to negotiate just before the atom bomb? Why not a year before? What made this time so special except for the ad hoc context.

given the US admitted it was doing it just to intimidate the Soviets, and the alternative was sitting around for a bit longer and negotiating till that ran dry it is clearwhat the wrong choice was

Shithole US sucks and obviously did it for the wrong reasons. But A single firebomb raid killed as many as the atom bomb. While you're negotiating, the US is still gonna be firebombing shit. A few extra months of war, or even blockade, would have outweighed the casualties of the bomb. Now the US wasn't doing this for humanitarian reasons of course, but the first bomb was the least bad option done for the wrong reasons.

Second bomb was absolutely just a dick-measuring contest with the Soviets.

[–] Vncredleader@hexbear.net 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The least bad option is stopping the bombings. Japan was at a point when kamikaze attacks didn't do shit to the navy sitting on their shores. Time had been bought, oil was nonexistent. The horrors of the firebombing of Tokyo dont make the nukes justified. You can cease bombings during negotiations.

And the time before the bomb dropped was the correct time, the Soviets had entered the war against Japan, Japan's chance at negotiating through a third party was now gone and the walls where closing in. This was the plan. The Soviets stayed out until that point with the intention of the Allies being literally to use that as leverage. The door was left open on purpose

https://books.google.com/books?id=rddhxSKGQ9oC&dq=soviet+neutrality+pact+1941+denounce&pg=PA150#v=onepage&q=soviet%20neutrality%20pact%201941%20denounce&f=false

The US drops the first bomb August 6th, August 7th the USSR declares war on Japan (technically telling Japan on the 8th and with the caveat that the USSR would consider itself at war from the 9th on). So yeah I'm gonna go with prior to the Soviets entering the war as per the United States own wishes, as the ideal time for negotiations. The US had broken Japan's codes and was reading messages like this from Ambassador Sato

"There is no alternative but immediate unconditional surrender if we are to prevent Russia's participation in the war."

[–] StraightIanFidance@hexbear.net 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Japan was at a point when kamikaze attacks didn't do shit to the navy sitting on their shores. Time had been bought, oil was nonexistent.

Again, this is absolutely true but only really knowable ad hoc. If you have a source stating the conditions of Japan were known at this point, it would change my perspective.

The horrors of the firebombing of Tokyo dont make the nukes justified.

Correct, but for the US it's likely to be one or the another. Even in a theoretical blockade, the amount of people who starve would probably outweigh the bomb. There are no good options in war, use of the first atom bomb was probably the one with the least casualties.

You can cease bombings during negotiations.

You can but you're allowing the enemy to re-group. We shouldn't trust the genocidal Japanese government to act in good faith just like we shouldn't trust the Nazis. Every day still at war meant Japan was still slaughtering people in camps.

"There is no alternative but immediate unconditional surrender if we are to prevent Russia's participation in the war."

Which does not say "We must surrender immediately." It says, "If we don't, we'll have to fight Russia as well." One ambassador saying that surrender is a good option is not the Government of Japan saying so.

[–] Vncredleader@hexbear.net 1 points 1 year ago

They had no means to do anything. They had been restricted to the home islands. Also you keep saying "ad hoc" but I think you misunderstand that the navy keeps track of whether or not enemy planes sink their freaking ships. You can kinda keep track of that "hey did that plane blow you the fuck up or did it get shot down" and then get the answer. Pilots keep track of their fucking kills, that is not ad hoc information. The navy tracked the damage done by kamikaze.

They had no fucking navy, Yamato was sent out for a suicide mission and it didn't even get the chance, it got sunk almost instantly. The military couldn't do much of anything.

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