20
A Modern Private Messenger (lazysoci.al)
submitted 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by sabreW4K3@lazysoci.al to c/askandroid@lemdro.id
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In light of what's happened to Durov and possibly seeing Telegram compromised, I'm doubling my efforts to find a new main messenger. Before you start, not Signal as it's a bad fit for the needs of me, my family and friends.

So what do I need?

  • The ability to run on multiple devices. Me, my family and friends all have multiple Android devices.
  • The ability to run on desktop. Linux and Windows.
  • Built in sticker repository. What can I say, I like to lazy flirt.
  • Animated Emoji. I like my messenger experience vibrant.
  • Material You. Again with the vibrancy, but also, it's a sign of modernity.
  • Phone number linking. My family and friends are lazy as hell.
  • Synchronized chats. I don't mind self hosting a bridge, but the ability to see messages on multiple devices is a must.
  • Voice Messages
  • Video Calls
  • Group Video Calls
  • Stories integrated into as first class citizens
  • Private. If you suggest WhatsApp, I'm assuming you're either stupid or a troll.

Can anyone recommend anything?

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[-] 314xel@lemmy.world 13 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Signal is modern as in modern, good cryptography. Most of development time went into that.

With security, you always need to trade-off convenience and bling features. "Lazy as hell" don't go well with that. I can understand lacking group video calls and ability to run on multiple devices, but not "sticker repository" and "animated emojis". I wish they didn't spend time on the Stories feature either, it's supposed to be a messenger, not a social media platform.

[-] BearOfaTime@lemm.ee 6 points 2 months ago

The problem with Signal is getting other people to use it.

Part of that issue is "the dropping of support for SMS, and the awful UI/UX.

[-] QuizzaciousOtter@lemm.ee 2 points 2 months ago

Isn't it the opposite? I always thought Signal is pretty much the only private messenger that has any chance of mass adoption. I mean, most people at least heard about it which is already a lot in comparison to others.

Also, personally I actually really like the UI/UX. I'm curious, could you elaborate what you don't like about it?

Regarding SMS support... Yeah, I agree. I really miss that feature.

[-] AndrewZabar@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

I think the challenge of getting others to use anything other than what they’re used to is going to be the same regardless what that anything is. I know people who have continued to use something no matter how many articles were published about its security flaws, data harvesting and spying. They just don’t care. It’s what they know and it’s what their friends know.

So if you’re going to have to change someone else’s mind, pick what you like best because that won’t be the deal-breaker.

[-] tilefan@lemm.ee 1 points 2 months ago

what's wrong with the ui?

[-] nudnyekscentryk@szmer.info 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

the dropping of support for SMS

Disagree. The fact that most people are clueless about types of messaging and don't distinguish between SMS, MMS, RCS, iMessage, Signal, Messenger, WhatsApp, Telegram, Line and so on just caused extra confusion for regular users. Removing SMS support from Signal was totally justified

[-] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 2 months ago

Signal doesn't lack group video calls. It can support video calling up to 40 devices at once.

[-] sabreW4K3@lazysoci.al 2 points 2 months ago

I think the problem is, is that there's a bunch of people who don't get that modern day communication has changed. Things like Stories and Stickers are a big part of modern day communicating. The cost shouldn't be not being able to do pretty standard things.

[-] QuizzaciousOtter@lemm.ee 2 points 2 months ago

Signal has stories and stickers tho

[-] sabreW4K3@lazysoci.al 1 points 2 months ago

Neither as first class citizens. Stories are in a tab and stickers are on a third party unofficial website.

[-] QuizzaciousOtter@lemm.ee 2 points 2 months ago

Fair enough. I don't actually use those features so I wouldn't know.

[-] liveinthisworld@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 months ago

I might use emoticons sometimes but that's about it. If there's a population that absolutely can't live without Instagram like short-length videos all the time, then there's an equivalent population who considers it feature bloat.

I see your opinion however you have been exceedingly rude in many comments on this thread, even to good people who answered you in good faith.

[-] ladfrombrad@lemdro.id 13 points 2 months ago

Sticker repository? lol, Telegram has that market cornered and you know it :)

https://matrix.org/ is probably the only reasonable solution to your problem but reading between the lines you're inferring that Telegram is dead in the water.

I'm a popcorn fanantic and await to see the, corns?

[-] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 2 months ago

We would not recommend Matrix for security considering the recently admitted their old encryption code was bad and a lot of clients are still using their old encryption code:

https://soatok.blog/2024/08/14/security-issues-in-matrixs-olm-library/

[-] Zachariah@lemmy.world 10 points 2 months ago

Matrix, Signal, and Threema are the main contenders. Nothing else comes close to all your preferences. For stickers/emoji/gifs, you’ll probably need a third party keyboard, but I don’t have any recommendations for those.

[-] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Matrix should not be considered as their security has been pretty bad until recently (they intentionally shipped bad code and knew about it for years): https://soatok.blog/2024/08/14/security-issues-in-matrixs-olm-library/ and many clients still use that bad code.

Threema has been pretty bad historically: https://soatok.blog/2021/11/05/threema-three-strikes-youre-out and their desktop offering is not one-to-one with the mobile apps, it's pretty limited in what it can do and has to have a device connected to the network at all times, open on the app and unlocked with the screen on.

[-] techwithjake@lemm.ee 1 points 2 months ago

Signal stickers is a good enough repo to integrate them

[-] 777@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 months ago

What makes signal unsuitable? That’ll help spark some ideas.

[-] sabreW4K3@lazysoci.al 3 points 2 months ago

1, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 11

[-] prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 months ago

Which one of those can signal not do?

[-] sabreW4K3@lazysoci.al 4 points 2 months ago
  • Signal can only run on one Android device
  • Signal has no built in sticker repository
  • Signal doesn't have animated emoji
  • Signal hasn't adopted Material You. Especially so for Monet.
  • Signal doesn't synchronize chats because there's no bridge.
  • Signal presents Stories on a separate tab, effectively making them a third class citizen.
[-] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

3, 4, 5 and 11.

Not sure about 1 as we run it on our tablet so it definetly can be linked to other devices but we aren't sure how many.

7 can be done by linking devices, so not sure what is meant by this.

Edit: ah, okay, so seems the Signal app itself cannot be linked to multiple Android devices, including tablets, that's pretty bad. The Molly fork can work as a linked devices though, however Signal only supports linking 5 devices at the same time.

[-] potentiallynotfelix@lemdro.id 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Why not signal? It fits your criteria... If not, try GNU Jami, it's well designed but not material you, and has most of your features.

Edit: Session is another messenger which has some of your features you might want

[-] sabreW4K3@lazysoci.al 1 points 2 months ago

Why not signal? It fits your criteria...

Okay, I'll bite. Tell me how it fits my criteria, using the bullet point list provided.

[-] potentiallynotfelix@lemdro.id 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

X The ability to run on multiple devices. Me, my family and friends all have multiple Android devices. ✔️ The ability to run on desktop. Linux and Windows. X Built in sticker repository. What can I say, I like to lazy flirt. X Animated Emoji. I like my messenger experience vibrant. ✔️(partial Material You. Again with the vibrancy, but also, it's a sign of modernity. ✔️ Phone number linking. My family and friends are lazy as hell. ✔️ Synchronized chats. I don't mind self hosting a bridge, but the ability to see messages on multiple devices is a must. ✔️ Voice Messages ✔️ Video Calls ✔️ Group Video Calls ✔️? Stories integrated into as first class citizens

Not sure what you meant by stories integrated as first class citizens. Signal does have stories, though.

In summary, signal fits your criteria quite well, only missing out on full material you support, stickers, and animated emojis. I may be missing an app, but I believe that this is the best you will get without going for telegram.

Edited for accuracy

[-] techwithjake@lemm.ee 2 points 2 months ago

Signal Stickers works well enough to have a good repo of stickers.

[-] potentiallynotfelix@lemdro.id 2 points 2 months ago

I didn't even know about this, that's cool.

[-] sabreW4K3@lazysoci.al -3 points 2 months ago

The ability to run on multiple devices. Me, my family and friends all have multiple Android devices.

https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007320551-Linked-Devices

Scroll down to other devices and tell me what it says please

As for the rest, you're being dishonest with those ticks. I don't understand what the benefit is.

Not sure what you meant by stories integrated as first class citizens. Signal does have stories, though.

Not tabs.

In summary, signal fits your criteria quite well, only missing out on full material you support, stickers, and animated emojis. I may be missing an app, but I believe that this is the best you will get without going for telegram.

Literally fails at the first hurdle and then the third and fourth, but somehow fits my criteria?

[-] potentiallynotfelix@lemdro.id 3 points 2 months ago

Sorry for checking the first one, I misunderstood your criteria.

"Not tabs" is not clear enough, I still can't understand what you mean

You never specified that these were in order of importance.

[-] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

They mean that stories are hidden away in a tab rather than up at the top which would be clearly visible at all times, like other messaging apps do it.

[-] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

The only thing that fits most of your needs is Signal, we have looked into this heavily and nothing has as many features, is as easy to use as and has a strong of focus on privacy and security as Signal, so it's either that or Whatsapp.

You can techically use signal on multiple devices, by linking them instead of setting them up as each their own 'host', if you want it on multiple phones or multiple android devices you'll likely have to use Molly, I believe this would work, but am unsure.

Matrix should not be considered because of this:

https://soatok.blog/2024/08/14/security-issues-in-matrixs-olm-library/

and Threema is pretty bad historically ( https://soatok.blog/2021/11/05/threema-three-strikes-youre-out/ ), even though they have improved in the last year or two, but their desktop offering is pretty awful, as unless you want to use the beta and use iOS then you have to keep your device attached to the network, on and open on Threema only.

Signal really is the only option here.

[-] sabreW4K3@lazysoci.al 1 points 2 months ago

I definitely don't consider WhatsApp to be private, Signal doesn't support multiple Android devices and Threema sounds pretty useless. So it would seem there's no real options? Which is a shame.

[-] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Yup, all the 'more private' ones like SimpleX or Session don't have as many features and are have pretty suspicious funding sources (or involved in crypto).

WhatsApp might be private but there's no way to be 100% sure, since it's closed source and can leak some messages in reports which is intentional.

Yes and no about Signal supporting multiple Android devices, the Molly fork might be able to if you set it up as a linked device, and we know that apple tablets can be linked in the actual Signal app.

[-] sabreW4K3@lazysoci.al 2 points 2 months ago

Given that SimpleX can be self-hosted, I'm definitely looking at that hopefully. Hopefully someone else develops an app, because cross platform apps are bullshit.

[-] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Sadly it won't meet and/all of your requirements, it is pretty barebones on features and doesn't really offer message syncing, you have to create a new account for every device, last we checked.

What do you mean cross platform apps are bullshit?

We don't think more and more messaging apps solves anything really, it just fractures userbases more and more. The best thing folks can do is use the apps that are the most likely for folks to use and work on improving them either by coding for them, or keeping on suggesting and voting for ideas until they get implimented.

Moving again and again to newest app of the week 562 won't make the situation any better, not to mention most of them probably haven't had security audits at all or very sparsely if they have, so their privacy and security can't really be verified.

[-] sabreW4K3@lazysoci.al 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

What do you mean cross platform apps are bullshit?

You'll be pained to find a world-class app that's written on a cross platform base. They tend to miss the intricacies of native design conventions and tend to be sluggish.

We don't think more and more messaging apps solves anything really, it just fractures userbases more and more. The best thing folks can do is use the apps that are the most likely for folks to use and work on improving them either by coding for them, or keeping on suggesting and voting for ideas until they get implimented.

I was actually part of the discussions for Signal implementing stories and the same type of people who were saying they didn't see the point in adding stories and wanted an option to turn them off, also were vocal enough to get them put in a tab. It's like the vocal minorities on Reddit that want small phones and think front facing cameras are a waste of time. They get in the way of real progress. What my 18 year old cousin wants from a messenger app is very different to what you or even I want, but the key to growth is definitely developing with the 18 year old in mind.

Sorry, just noticed your pronouns in your username. How do I use them properly? Do I replace you with cele and your with celes?

[-] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 2 months ago

That's fair, although really that's unfortunately because from what we know of there's no really good cross platform languages/toolkits etc, so usually we do have to end up with some half-assed solution or folks having to maintain multiple native code bases. Either situation isn't ideal, but until something that provides the option for genuine security and native looks that works well across all platforms is developed we'll be kind of stuck.

Oh, sad. Hopefully we can kick up enough of a fuss to evetually get it moved. We don't know if we agree entirely that developing for only one demographic is always the best idea, but more demographics should be considered for sure, yeah.

No, cele/celes are third person pronouns, not second person, our second person pronouns are y'all etc.

[-] sabreW4K3@lazysoci.al 2 points 2 months ago

It reminds me of how Mozilla was hemorrhaging contributors but kept trying to stick to IRC. I'm definitely not saying don't support the legacy contributors, but be aware of what modern demographics want to use and why, because if you're not moving forward, you're being left behind.

And thank y'all for the clarification, I'll be sure to get them right in future posts. Forgive my earlier ignorance. I didn't mean to disrespect y'all.

[-] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Oof, yeah IRC is awful and sadly we're forced to use some things that still use IRC to communicate and we're not really sure why. There does seem to be a derth of users that have moved with the times in leadership positions of important projects.

We have seen it recently with some things we use and we hope it strongly forces them to consider being wrong or that it blows up in their faces. Because yeah, we agree if you're not moving with the times you will hemorage contributors and then you'll only be left with the 'old guard' or worse people (such as fascists not that two aren't the same many time, heh).

Also, Mozilla is just a really poorly run company to begin with and needs some serious restructuring and to stop doing things that serves only itself and not its users. If it genuinely cared about its users and allowed direct donations to firefox perhaps folks would have fewer problems with it.

Sure, we are happy to help!

[-] liveinthisworld@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 months ago

Please explain how a properly set up IRC server is awful. If you find the time also contrast it with the more "modern" solutions like Discord and Slack

[-] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Because none of the examples you listed have end-to-end encryption with perfect forward secrecy for one, including IRC. Also, IRC specifically is very confusing to even make a username on and keep it, let alone know how to do anything else on.

We have never used Discord or Slack, specifically because they don't have e2ee, but at least they have, from what we understand, a pretty simple sign up process and good UI/UX.

[-] liveinthisworld@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I admit that is inherently an insecure form of communication. I don't see a problem if you're using PGP though. And at least IRC can be self hosted. I suppose one can use a private Matrix instance too.

What problems are you having in signing up for IRC? Just use a client for your OS? I didn't find it especially hard when I did it, I'm part of a few channels for Linux. Just treat it like you treat any group chat. If there's bots there will also likely be a page with instructions/wiki

Unless you're using PGP on Discord and Slack too I don't understand how you're not disgusted by them.

[-] oftheair@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 2 months ago

Yes, this is why we use matrix over IRC due to e2ee. PGP last we checked doesn't have PFS, sadly.

We remember when we used IRC having to remember all those silly commands for nick bots wasn't exactly good UX.

We said that we don't use Discord/Slack for that reason, so yes, we are disgusted by them too.

[-] liveinthisworld@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Yes, it is unfortunate that forward secrecy is missing from all of these. Is there any encryption mechanism for text which maintains PFS? I haven't tried AGE personally.

Haha takes me back, the bots. IRC was much prevalent back then, I suppose I'm just nostalgic. I won't argue against Matrix.

Thanks, so we're on the same page.

Edit: there seems to be some work going into PFS

https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/

https://www.cs.umd.edu/~jkatz/papers/forward-enc-full.pdf

[-] tilefan@lemm.ee 1 points 2 months ago

i use jmp.chat it meets several of your requirements I have no idea if it meets others

[-] liveinthisworld@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 months ago

Sorry, but the more private messaging apps just aren't there as commercial data hoggers. If you absolutely need stickers and perfect material you and other features, just use WhatsApp and train your family members to use PGP on Android. Maintain a secondary identity for sensitive stuff with SimpleX/Briar

[-] jdr@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 months ago

I recommend you stop being so lazy. Or use whatsapp, or get your stickers from gboard and use signal.

this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2024
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