this post was submitted on 05 Aug 2024
416 points (98.1% liked)

TenForward: Where Every Vulcan Knows Your Name

3870 readers
850 users here now

/c/TenFoward: Your home-away-from-home for all things Star Trek!

Re-route power to the shields, emit a tachyon pulse through the deflector, and post all the nonsense you want. Within reason of course.

~ 1. No bigotry. This is a Star Trek community. Remember that diversity and coexistence are Star Trek values. Any post/comments that are racist, anti-LGBT, or generally "othering" of a group will result in removal/ban.

~ 2. Keep it civil. Disagreements will happen both on lore and preferences. That's okay! Just don't let it make you forget that the person you are talking to is also a person.

~ 3. Use spoiler tags. This applies to any episodes that have dropped within 3 months prior of your posting. After that it's free game.

~ 4. Keep it Trek related. This one is kind of a gimme but keep as on topic as possible.

~ 5. Keep posts to a limit. We all love Star Trek stuff but 3-4 posts in an hour is plenty enough.

~ 6. Try to not repost. Mistakes happen, we get it! But try to not repost anything from within the past 1-2 months.

~ 7. No General AI Art. Posts of simple AI art do not 'inspire jamaharon'

~ 8. No Political Upheaval. Political commentary is allowed, but please keep discussions civil. Read here for our community's expectations.

Fun will now commence.


Sister Communities:

!startrek@lemmy.world

!memes@lemmy.world

!tumblr@lemmy.world

!lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world

Want your community to be added to the sidebar? Just ask one of our mods!


Honorary Badbitch:

@jawa21@startrek.website for realizing that the line used to be "want to be added to the sidebar?" and capitalized on it. Congratulations and welcome to the sidebar. Stamets is both ashamed and proud.


Creator Resources:

Looking for a Star Trek screencap? (TrekCore)

Looking for the right Star Trek typeface/font for your meme? (Thank you @kellyaster for putting this together!)


founded 11 months ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] cybervseas@lemmy.world 63 points 4 months ago (4 children)

I guess Rick Berman was okay with homoerotic women stuff, just not men stuff?

[–] The_Picard_Maneuver@lemmy.world 107 points 4 months ago (3 children)

F/F was weirdly more palatable to audiences for decades before M/M.

[–] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 91 points 4 months ago (2 children)

It kind of still is. Most people who oppose "teh gays" mostly talk about male-male..

[–] Phen 47 points 4 months ago (2 children)

My mother in law has no problem with M/M but complains about lesbians (says it's disgusting) - I then assumed homophobes are bothered more about gays of their own gender in general.

[–] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 30 points 4 months ago (1 children)

That's fair, most people who are loudly anti-gay tend to be male. Mostly because the "loudly anti-gay" group tends to overlap significantly with the "anti-women- group.

[–] BigMikeInAustin@lemmy.world 12 points 4 months ago

A lot.of anti-gay males are afraid of being treated the way the cis guys treat women as just a sexual object.

[–] TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world 11 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I also see a lot of anti-lesbian stuff from women. Tbh, I see more of it in my own personal life than I do anti-gay men, but that's just my experience, I don't know if that's also the reality (I imagine it varies by area/culture too).

And yeah I agree with your theory that people seem more bothered about same-sex relations for their own sex.

[–] Danquebec@sh.itjust.works 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm curious. What area / culture are you in?

[–] TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago

I live in a relatively impoverished area in the north east of England, although I'm originally from India

[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 22 points 4 months ago (1 children)

"WE DON'T WANT 'MEN' IN THE WOMEN'S BATHROOM"

And FTM transpeople? You're cool with them using the men's bathroom?

"Eff te wat? What are you on about?"

[–] Phen 15 points 4 months ago

The JK brand of transphobes don't even believe they exist as they think trans = "men role-playing in order to abuse women"

[–] Rakonat@lemmy.world 23 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Lesbians have been fetishized because it feeds into a FFM threesome fantasy. The entire setup is just aimed at straight men who are single or unhappy with their marriage. All too often when F/F relationships are portrayed like this, when the women are out together they are almost always flirty with other guys they meet, like they are trying to plant the seed that one lucky guy could be taken home with them.

While I certainly agree the audience was more than ready for M/M and bisexual male characters, we didn't see it nearly as much because the bigots in charge didn't fetishize it, and didn't want it front and center even as a B story because it was going to cause backlash, from themselves and other bigots like them.

[–] dumbass@leminal.space 4 points 4 months ago

“Yeah but I can convert her" mentality is way more powerful than logic.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 21 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I do not agree that this was about audience approval.

I pointed out to others in a Garak thread that before Garak was introduced (and before these two episodes), we already had Roy's gay son on Wings who intentionally defied all stereotypes, the gay male couple who owned the B&B in Northern Exposure and the reveal that the town's founders were lovers, not sisters, plus more than one episode with a gay man as positive characters in L.A. law and Roseanne. If you want to push it back further, you had Billy Crystal's character in Soap who did have stereotypical mannerisms, but they were really downplayed and he was one of the only decent members of his family.

The audience was ready for gay male characters on a show that already celebrated diversity. Berman was just a bigot.

[–] aeronmelon@lemmy.world 21 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

Ricky B. Probably thought it was a Sappho situation. To be honest, Berman did the most damage to Star Trek while TNG was still on the air.

After that, he became the Kathleen Kennedy of Star Trek - still in power on paper, but amounting to much less as time went on.

DS9 was essentially run by Ira Steven Behr and Voyager by Jeri Taylor. Which is why they were so unusually sexually liberal and feminist, respectively, for something on network prime time in the 1990s.

Edit: Feminist, not feminine. Not really wrong, but a weird way to say it. :P

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 15 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Yes, but even there, Berman prevented characters from being gay and out, which is why he quashed what was very obviously intended to be a romantic relationship between Garak and Bashir. Both of them play their characters like there is a mutual attraction in the episode where Garak premieres.

[–] Zoot@reddthat.com 6 points 4 months ago (2 children)

This take has been throwing me off lately. I can definitely see how what a lot of is said can certainly be an innuendo, but personally I just thought thats how Garak is. Always mysterious, giving double entendres, etc. I think it would definitely have been interesting to explore that scenario, but personally I think it already fits very well as "Thats how Garak is with anyone".

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 14 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Andrew Robinson said he played Garak as omnisexual and attracted to Bashir. Alexander Siddig has described himself as "not quite straight" and both have played the roles unofficially as there being a relationship.

We see a tiny fraction of the characters' lives. A portion of a 45-minute episode. For all we know, they walked hand-in-hand down the promenade every day for months as everyone commented on what a cute couple they made. We just never saw it on screen.

And I think the choices of the actors matter.

This is where Garak and Bashir first meet. You watch this and tell me it isn't a meet cute: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTeJKg8Yf4A

[–] Mouselemming@sh.itjust.works 6 points 4 months ago

What's that phrase about "frightened but aroused"?

That.

[–] Zoot@reddthat.com 5 points 4 months ago

Haha, very well. I stand corrected. It does make Garak a little less mysterious in my mind but thats just fine.

[–] Kaldo@fedia.io 5 points 4 months ago

I recently discovered this superior version of that scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR1zgRYL530

[–] fireweed@lemmy.world 11 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Also, Garak seems like a character that's down to honeypot anybody if the mission requires it.

[–] Zoot@reddthat.com 6 points 4 months ago

You could say Garak really is that way with anyone ;).

[–] aeronmelon@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago

Right, that’s why I said “most”. I know he still caused trouble with those series, too. But he didn’t micromanage them like he did The Next Generation.

[–] Rakonat@lemmy.world 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Berman had reduced roles as each of the seasons went on but he still did the damage. Behind the scenes he's the primary reason Terry Farrel left the series, harassing her for literal years at that point and finally using his influence to try and financially dominate her, which she basically said fuck that and refused the contract.

While Nicole de Boer did an amazing job picking up the role with basically no build up or introduction that the character was due, the shoes she had to fill were just too big and the character suffered as even the writers were trying to figure out what to even do with the character. Various other rumors and things cast members have said have pretty much all pointed back to Berman about tensions on sets writers not being able to use the plots they wanted to run in the show because they didn't align with his bigoted views.

[–] friendlymessage@feddit.org 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Hmm.. I think the Ezri character arc is actually pretty strong for being in the show for only one season of a show in the nineties. I mean, they had the whole conflict with Worf up to a new friendship and her dissing the Klingon empire, the episode where she helps Garak, the episode where she finds the killer, the episode where she helps Lennier detect the Houdinis, the episode where O'Brian goes missing and we see her family... The only thing I really didn't like was how she was basically shown as incompetent in the Nog PTSD episode. That was a wasted opportunity showing her as a great counselor. But Troi was also always incompetent at her job, so I guess that's tradition in Star Trek. But all of these episodes are unique to Ezri, except for AR-558, none of these story lines would have worked with Jadzia.

[–] Repelle@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago

Nicole DeBoer is a strong actress and her arc was well done overall. The problem was that it was the wrap up season for the show and that’s not the best time to be concentrating on a new character.

[–] chalupapocalypse@lemmy.world 10 points 4 months ago (1 children)
[–] cybervseas@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I mean…have you seen the Trek fan fiction?

I haven't. I'm just assuming everyone was writing about Kirk and Spock back in the day, too.

[–] usernamefactory@lemmy.ca 10 points 4 months ago

They definitely were. Kirk/Spock was the origin of the term “ slash fiction”.

[–] Bishma@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 4 months ago

There are some stories about the DS9 writers/runners being less Bermaned because his focus was on ending TNG and then starting Voy.