this post was submitted on 18 Jan 2025
64 points (94.4% liked)

Slop.

298 readers
680 users here now

For posting all the anonymous reactionary bullshit that you can't post anywhere else.

Rule 1: All posts must include links to the subject matter, and no identifying information should be redacted.

Rule 2: If your source is a reactionary website, please use archive.is instead of linking directly.

Rule 3: No sectarianism.

Rule 4: TERF/SWERFs Not Welcome

Rule 5: No bigotry of any kind, including ironic bigotry.

Rule 6: Do not post fellow hexbears.

Rule 7: Do not individually target other instances' admins or moderators.

Rule 8: Do not post public figures, these should be posted to c/gossip

founded 2 months ago
MODERATORS
 

I’ve seen a lot of people argue that those with Antisocial Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality disorder can’t be ethical persons. The argument goes that if you have a mental disorder which impairs empathy, you won’t care about hurting other people. You have no incentive to treat others with kindness and respect.

And while I think this line of reasoning may be true for some children, I would argue that lack of empathy offers no obstacle to ethical reasoning for a fully matured adult. Today I’d like to talk about ethics without empathy, about the people who can’t do it, and about how this helped Donald Trump win the 2024 election.

Psychologist Jean Piaget’s best-known work is his theory of cognitive development, which says children go through four distinct stages on their way to an adult mind. Although cognitive development is less discrete and less linear than Piaget’s theory suggests, it’s still taught in psychology classes for its usefulness.

The first stage, the sensorimotor stage, is all about learning fundamental interaction with the world. What’s safe to eat? What do mum and dad look like? How does walking work? This is where skills like object permanence are picked up. Before that point, peekaboo is a stimulating intellectual challenge.

The second stage, the pre-operational stage, is about trying to make sense of the world. It’s about play, and imagination, and learning. Cut a pre-operational child’s burger in half, and they’ll think they have twice as many burgers, which is more.

The concrete operational stage is about making reasoned judgements about the physical world. It’s the beginning of logic. Concrete operational children can plan ahead and understand complex ideas, as long as those ideas relate to the real world as they experience it.

The formal operational stage is about abstract reasoning. It’s about forming universal philosophical ideas. Formal operational children can engage in hypotheticals and learn something from them. They can think about things outside of their own experience.

The funny thing is, not everyone reaches the formal operational stage. There are plenty of “adults” — which is to say, people older than 18 — who can’t reason abstractly. Give them a thought experiment, and they’ll say it couldn’t possibly matter because it’s imaginary. Ask their favourite ethical philosophy, and they’ll give you a blank stare. If you’ve met someone who doesn’t respect cartoons as art and says they’re just for kids — even after being told about shows like South Park and Castlevania — you’ve probably met a concrete operational “adult”.

I think the people who can’t possibly imagine an ASPD “psychopath”, as the offensive slang goes, having an ethical code, are at the concrete operational stage. See, to a person at that stage, there’s no thinking about right and wrong abstractly. There’s only right and wrong from your direct experience. They can’t imagine reaching moral conclusions without their sense of empathy. if the answer wasn’t right there in the direct view of their feelings, they wouldn’t be able to see it.

Empathy is almost certainly the beginning of ethical reasoning. The understanding that others have feelings too IS essential. But that understanding doesn’t actually need to come from direct experience. You could read it in a book or see it on TV. And if it is from direct experience, you don’t necessarily need it every time. A reminder is nice, but people are capable of getting the picture from one blinding moment of sudden empathy in a lifetime.

Once the understanding is had that others can feel pain, anyone at the formal operational stage can just… figure the rest out. It isn’t exactly complex. You just have to be able to make reasoned judgements outside of your direct ability to observe. Theoretical physicists, computer scientists, and meteorologists do that all the time. They can make predictions, think about the unseeable, develop abstract theories. Any “psychopath” can surely do the same.

But, to a concrete operational who thinks they’ve fully matured into an adult, this may seem far fetched. Because after all, this isn’t how concrete operationals do morality.

What do they do? They just do whatever feels right. They can make predictions, sure, but only about their own feeling of empathy. When their empathy fails, their ethics do too.

Look at climate change!

Everyone knows life on earth is going to end if we don’t stop emitting carbon. The fossil fuel companies know it. The politicians know it. The voters know it. Sure, there are still conspiracy theorists, but 80% of us are all on the same page about the facts.

Alas, feelings don’t care about your facts.

Climate change feels far away. It’s hard to imagine the consequences. Having an actual emotional reaction to the impending extinction of our species is classed as an anxiety disorder and most psychologists will try to “cure” it. Our society is not designed for you to actually care about the climate.

And a concrete operational, if they don’t care about something, struggles to think about it. That’s why people still drive cars. Still want to invest in AI and crypto. Argue against renewables because it’s “expensive”. The economy feels real and immediate in comparison with the climate. That’s a feeling with absolutely no truth, but our society goes to a lot of effort to make it happen anyway.

Over the course of the last year, I noticed something very odd about the conversations I had about Gaza. And if you read the title of the article, you know where this is going. Before I engage in formal operation, however, let’s have some concrete facts:

  • Benjamin Netanyahu is a fugitive from international justice who refuses to be tried for war crimes

  • Netanyahu allowed money to be funneled into Hamas as part of a plan to increase hostilities between Israel and Gaza

  • The median age in Gaza is 18. Children are dying to bombs and bullets and starvation. Children are not valid military targets.

  • Joe Biden has historically supported Israel and given money and weapons to Israel for the known purpose of murdering children.

  • Kamala Harris ran as Joe Biden’s VP and, while promising an end to the genocide in Gaza, failed to convince many people.

  • Donald Trump promised to use even more violence against Gaza than Joe Biden if he was elected.

“Tankie” is a derogatory term for Stalinists who support China and Russia, even in the present when Russia is capitalist. The insult implied in the name is that tankies support the use of military vehicles to suppress civilian dissent. I’ve seen quite a few Stalinists embrace the word as a self-descriptor recently, so sure, let’s go ahead and use it.

In 2024, I saw a lot of members of online tankie communities like “lemmygrad.ml” (bit on the nose, no?) make a peculiar argument against voting for Kamala Harris.

The argument goes that Harris supports genocide because she didn’t go ahead and call her current boss a genocidal murder (which he is). And therefore, voting for Harris is a moral wrong, even if not voting would let Donald Trump win and bomb Gaza into ashes.

You can point out to a tankie that Harris promised to do less genocide and Trump promised to do more. And they’ll nod, and say they understand.

The thing is… I don’t believe them.

Well, I do believe the Russian astroturfers who lead the tankie movement. I believe they’re fully aware of what they’re doing. But the common tankie, the one who actually believes the propaganda… nah.

I think they’re perfectly capable of understanding the facts of the Gazan genocide. But that their judgement and reasoning is entirely unaffected by their abstract knowledge. I think they’re only at the concrete operational stage, and therefore, they can only reason about things that are directly in front of them.

The amount of suffering in Gaza over the past year is unimaginable. The number of dead is unimaginable. Sure, you can count the deaths and recite the number. But I think it has as much emotional resonance as if I tell you the sun weighs 2 x 10³⁰ kilograms. It hits the limit of your understanding of scale. it maxes out the dial. All you really understood was “big number”.

And for a formal operational, “big number” is enough. It may be abstract and meaningless, but fully mature adults can handle abstract and meaningless. We can actually make decisions in that space.

Concrete operationals? Intellectually, they can perceive a difference in two big numbers. But it doesn’t feel real to them. They can’t make judgements based on abstract reasoning. The fact that Trump is worse than Harris? It doesn’t make any sense. Harris is already the worst person they can possibly imagine. Trump is the same, so what’s the difference? After the dozenth picture like this, it gets harder to keep caring

A concrete operational can make a reasoned decision about how to vote if they’re given a way to care about the difference. For example, if they know a trans American who is scared that Trump will put them in a concentration camp. If they’re able to take their mind off the unimaginably huge suffering in Gaza for a moment and see the scared, hurt person in front of them, they can understand. But it’s hard.

And the concrete operationals who’ve been hoodwinked into following the tankie movement are conditioned to reject any chance to care about the difference.

And adult-bodied children like that are apparently the median US voter.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 4 hours ago

This is a grade-A top quality shitpost. Truly amazing, I love the subtle addition of mentioning South Park as "art"

[–] LisaTrevor@hexbear.net 5 points 6 hours ago

olympic level logical gymnastics from this one lmao

They really tell on themselves in the end there. The assumption is Harris would somehow cause a lower death toll (still in the hundreds of thousands of course, and that's just in one conflict) than Trump would over the course of her term, and therefore anyone who refused to vote for her failed to use abstract reasoning in making their decisions. Because we're unable to imagine the alternative could be worse? That's never even been the argument.

Implicit in this assumption is that voting, or even making arguments about how to vote and why, is a process in which the voting collective has no agency beyond choosing a winner between two predetermined, and apparently eternally static entities. It betrays their own belief that it's impossible to use a vote, or voting discourse, as any sort of leverage to change what a candidate or a party is willing to capitulate on in the course of the election, as a means of forcing them to listen to and consider their voters directly, under threat of a real decline in their institutional position.

When they say "failure of abstract reasoning" what they really mean is "a refusal to simplify political engagement and interaction down to the variables that I have personally determined to be important, and instead introducing variables that have no bearing on my own worldview." They're, ironically, failing to use abstract reasoning to consider the effects of never questioning or resisting establishment electoralism over the course of more than like 2 election cycles. They can't even consider that there are possible strategies toward abolishing the state of affairs in which both options result in millions dead and impoverished around the world, and they would never accept that those strategies might involve refusing to vote for the lesser of two evils as part of shifting power long-term.

[–] sooper_dooper_roofer@hexbear.net 3 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

this is wordvomit and has cope in it but some of it is true

Concrete operationals? Intellectually, they can perceive a difference in two big numbers. But it doesn’t feel real to them. They can’t make judgements based on abstract reasoning.

It's basically most people regardless of politics. Anybody who was ever surprised by Chinese infrastructure, or that parts of India are clean, or that you can visit African countries. So yea most people are like that, not some. Probably 90%

Kamala

the anti-democrat feeling is baby-like, but most can actually afford to tolerate Trump as president, except for undocumented. To back you up, Palestine had no bearing on the election and Kamala would have lost anyway, it's numerically proven.

But let's just be honest, I can tell that Dems have no idea what they're doing. It's not something logical, just human instinct, how they talk, etc.

I actually think the anger at dems is indicative of this baby-brain you talk about--Dems aren't mask-off hateful fascists like many claim, they're just hyperfocusers who lack curiosity, thus can't read the room outside of wine-mom-bubble (because they never seek outside of it), the same way 90% of the population can't read the reality outside of their youtube/reddit/tiktok honkey propaganda.

The two are fundamentally similar people, the former surrounded by a 2000s style satiety devoid of panic and stress, and the latter steeped in an english-internet reddit-4chan bubble which has not changed in a decade other than becoming more outrageous, violent, and stupid

They're the same people, just surrounded by different people and material circumstances

There are plenty of “adults” — which is to say, people older than 18 — who can’t reason abstractly. Give them a thought experiment, and they’ll say it couldn’t possibly matter because it’s imaginary. Ask their favourite ethical philosophy, and they’ll give you a blank stare.

philosophy's dumb and all ethics are arbitrary, usually demarcated by the arbitrary distinction of citizen status or species

[–] Sodium_nitride@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 9 hours ago

Put down the psychology articles on buzzfeed and pick up a book on American history, for God's (and my) sake.

[–] SevenSkalls@hexbear.net 21 points 10 hours ago

So basically tankies are babies without object permanence?

It's strange because I found the opposite. Liberals seem more childish to me because they take politicians at their word despite their actions, a childish, naive notion for sure. Not to mention that punishing Democrats for supporting a genocide seems like a much more coherent long-term plan to me. Otherwise, the Democrats are encouraged to continue supporting genocides every election cycle. If anyone lacks the ability to look beyond the present moment, it's liberals.

[–] gramxi@hexbear.net 15 points 10 hours ago

slatestarcodex wannabe jagoff

[–] TheFinalCapitalist@hexbear.net 5 points 8 hours ago

Why did you make me read this wall of text

[–] Spongebobsquarejuche@hexbear.net 20 points 11 hours ago

Wow, so many words to say nothing.

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 46 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (1 children)

"If you’ve met someone who doesn’t respect cartoons as art and says they’re just for kids — even after being told about shows like South Park and Castlevania —"

Tagline plz

[–] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 20 points 12 hours ago (2 children)

This is a new type of guy.

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 19 points 12 hours ago

Smug south park guy goes back pretty far

i've met someone like this! i have an ex bandmate who moved away to attempt to get a phd in philosophy on the coast (can't remember if he finished) and we had a conversation about Palestine when he moved back recently where he tried to bury everything in nuance speak. he kept obfuscating the issue until i had to end it by saying "okay fuck off."

[–] goferking0@lemmy.sdf.org 19 points 12 hours ago

So not only did they not give a definition of tankie, because who would it's obvious right, but then in the comments say trumps going to unless hell which is worse after saying it's just a big number

The amount of suffering in Gaza over the past year is unimaginable. The number of dead is unimaginable. Sure, you can count the deaths and recite the number. But I think it has as much emotional resonance as if I tell you the sun weighs 2 x 10³⁰ kilograms. It hits the limit of your understanding of scale. it maxes out the dial. All you really understood was “big number”.

[–] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 14 points 11 hours ago (1 children)
[–] Zuzak@hexbear.net 16 points 9 hours ago

"Tankies are stupid babies for not voting Democrat."

[–] miz@hexbear.net 30 points 13 hours ago

Cut a pre-operational child’s burger in half, and they’ll think they have twice as many burgers, which is more.

doubt I have never seen a kid operate this way

[–] miz@hexbear.net 38 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

here's where I got to before I started laughing

the Russian astroturfers who lead the tankie movement

pepe-silvia

[–] Sodium_nitride@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 9 hours ago

It's me, I'm the Russian AstroTurfer! (I'm not Russian, but am asiatic untermensch, so close enough).

[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 31 points 13 hours ago

Just "Jewish Bolshevism" again pain

[–] ChaosMaterialist@hexbear.net 24 points 13 hours ago

lemmy.world mgs-alert

Opinion discarded

Well, Trump implemented a ceasefire day 0, so he has proven to be the harm reduction candidate and proven this guy wrong shrug-outta-hecks

[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 21 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

This type of liberal struggles with abstract reasoning in the same way a wooly mammoth struggles with a tar pit

[–] btbt@hexbear.net 39 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

The hallmark of the true intellectual is to come to the conclusion that a politician’s beliefs and platform are the opposite of what she publicly says they are because she’s a part of the blue team (the good guys) and is fighting against the red team (the bad guys), which automatically means her political positions must be good

It’s also very funny that this person made a completely valid argument when they said that it’s incorrect to assume that cartoons can’t be made for and marketed towards adults, only to defend their argument using a cartoon which appeals primarily to pseudo-edgelord twelve year olds and Videogame IP Advertisement: The Animated Series. Being a formal operational, I am capable of making inferences of this person’s motivations based on something more abstract than the words they wrote, meaning it is clear to myself and many others who have already posted in this thread that the author of this screed was motivated at least in part by being mocked for repeatedly insisting that the children’s media they’re a fan of is secretly high art

[–] barrbaric@hexbear.net 39 points 15 hours ago

"Everyone who disagrees with me is mentally a child" and other such ableist hits from supporters of "Bomber" Harris.

[–] newacctidk@hexbear.net 11 points 12 hours ago

Follow your leader your fascist fuck

[–] Pisha@hexbear.net 29 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

Sidenote, but thought experiments are complete nonsense. It's just something made up by Anglo philosophers so they don't have to engage with the real world. Trying to ennoble it as a higher form of reasoning just seems like an attack on the kind of political considerations that actually matter. You're not going to convince a hardcore Catholic that abortion should be allowed by posing them the trolley problem.

[–] Sodium_nitride@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 9 hours ago

I mean, special relativity was famously first explained via a thought experiment.

But such "thought experiments" are actually just "I calculated the effects of this theory but didn't have the equipment to test the results", which is a valid way of dealing with technological limitations.

[–] themostannoyingmusicproducerofalltime@hexbear.net 17 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

they can be useful to explain a concept to people, but i think simply pointing at one and saying "look i'm right!" isn't doing anything worthwhile. for example, there is actually a fairly famous abortion-related thought experiment that has been helpful at convincing people how banning abortion robs women of their autonomy. it can be helpful to explain it to certain men this way.

[–] Diva@lemmy.ml 43 points 16 hours ago (2 children)

Well, I do believe the Russian astroturfers who lead the tankie movement. I believe they’re fully aware of what they’re doing.

o shit they're on to me commiku

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 25 points 14 hours ago

This could be the longest site tagline yet

load more comments
view more: next ›