this post was submitted on 09 Jun 2024
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51
How The Russia-Ukraine War Will End (youtu.be)
submitted 5 months ago by SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml to c/genzedong@lemmygrad.ml
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Has anyone watched the new episode from First Thought/JT?

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[–] SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml 44 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (13 children)

I was quite let down by this video, I know that they said there would be no coverage of the internal politics for brevity, but avoiding that makes this video essentially useless. The internal politics are some of, if not the most important aspect of this war and not talking about it just makes the topic lose any sort of substance. Without the internal politics you are just parroting what everyone already pretty much knows and it makes it seem like this war came out of nowhere.

Have the Deprogram boys ever talked at length about the Ukraine-Russia proxy war? I know they’ve mentioned it here and there but nothing super deep, just little comments.

I think they missed a huge opportunity to talk about what this war is truly about and where it originated, this could have been a great video to educate others on the deep rooted context that informs this conflict but I guess we couldn’t get that… maybe next time.

[–] pinguinu@lemmygrad.ml 28 points 5 months ago (3 children)

He has a video on the CPUSA channel iirc on the war, calling it a proxy war and all that. I think since his channels are more directed at libs it took a very "centrist" stance trying to avoid controversy. For socdems/radlibs, admitting Ukraine is the vassal it is is a hard pill to swallow (especially in the US where I presume most the viewers are, where the war had pretty much no downsides). Nevertheless, in 2024 we have multiple statements and articles from the most fervent NATOist and pro-western sources spelling out that the war IS fought for the US' benefit, and the 2014 coup WAS a US effort.

That said, I think it's incorrect for JT to still be portraying the war in such a way on his channels. The war should be seen for what it is, before it inevitably disappears from libs' memory and people can get away with saying stupid shit and get away with it. It's not a secret that he's a "tankie", too. I don't think the people supporting his channel are oblivious to that, so I wouldn't say it's a money problem. But then again, I'm not him.

[–] commiewolf@lemmygrad.ml 22 points 5 months ago (1 children)

This is an excuse that people have made for the deprogram guys for over 2 years now. I know because I myself was under the same impression. But this is proven to be completely bullshit and irrelevant for quite a while now. The whole "they are appealing to libs and want to take a centrist approach to sensitive topics" crap completely went out the window the moment they decided to comment in support of Gaza in the wake of the genocide since last October. All their channels got blacklisted from advertisers and they decided to throw caution to the wind and drop any pretense in their revolutionary messaging, since they have nothing to lose anymore. Just look at any of JT's videos since October, and this is most evident.

If the goal was to cultivate a following of liberals and western moderates then start to slowly get them radicalized, it has failed or rather the plan has been long derailed. They ended up attracting a load of ultras and weirdos, which they'll never convince of anything regardless. I think even they know this at some level because their messaging has shifted.

If they're ready to tell the truth about Gaza, then they should do the same for Ukraine, simple as that. From here on, any milquetoast or weak spirited commentary should be rightfully called out, we should expect better from them.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 18 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

This is a sad but sober and i believe accurate assessment of the situation. Unfortunately the audience they have cultivated is one which (at least a part of it) does not want to hear the truth about Ukraine. It is no coincidence that they have a lot of overlap with Hasan Piker's audience, as Hasan is another "leftist" content creator who never had the guts to go against the anti-Russia narrative. It is just a fact that in today's western left, much of which is extremely compromised, being pro-Palestine is acceptable while being pro-Russia is not. This is an indicator to me that for whatever reason the empire sees pro-Russia left anti-imperialists as more of a threat than the pro-Palestine movement. They have done a very good job infecting the western left with the anti-Russia psyop.

I completely agree with what you said at the end there.

[–] SugandeseDelegation@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 5 months ago

This is an indicator to me that for whatever reason the empire sees pro-Russia left anti-imperialists as more of a threat than the pro-Palestine movement.

I always viewed this as "it's way more difficult for the empire to justify what it does in Palestine than in Ukraine". Primarily because of how many of these breadtube "leftists" like Vaush & friends rabidly support the US in Ukraine, but even they condemned Isn'treal as soon as October 7th happened.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 16 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I think since his channels are more directed at libs it took a very "centrist" stance trying to avoid controversy

Do you know what this is called? Tailism! To follow behind popular opinion in a condescending effort to "meet it where its at" even when "where its at" is backward, misinformed, and reactionary is literally the exact definition of tailism!

If he was actually doing Marxist agitation and not whatever miserable opportunist bullshit he's evidently on, he would be trying to raise people's consciousness instead of act as another mouthpiece on the thousand-tongued devil-spawn that is the MSM.

If JT "can't" speak properly on Russia-Ukraine, better to not speak on it at all and focus on what he can address with truth, instead of this nonsense.

The current state of affairs is unacceptable. He must be either corrected or abandoned.

[–] SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 5 months ago (2 children)

I completely understand why JT uses the language he does, I really do, but there has to be a way to portray the war accurately without using the framing or terms that would trigger anyone watching. Because this is what happens when there is not effort put in, you get lackluster content at best or add to the misinformation at worst. I don’t want to be too hard on him, and maybe I’m coming off that way, but it’s from a place of frustration from what could have been vs what we actually got. Gentle parenting libs is hard, I know, but I think the effort is worth it, this video is just not it and it doesn't really add anything to the discussion either. At the end of the day I know he can do better and I hope the next video he makes is.

[–] SovietReporter@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 5 months ago

Yeah, I agree that this honestly was one of his worst videos.

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[–] LeniX@lemmygrad.ml 18 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

I think they missed a huge opportunity to talk about what this war is truly about and where it originated, this could have been a great video to educate others on the deep rooted context that informs this conflict but I guess we couldn’t get that… maybe next time.

That's just the thing... In what way are you better than the liberals if you talk about this very important stuff after the conflict has ended, not while it's still ongoing? To paraphrase, "Liberals are always against every war except the current one". You educating people on the matter makes a difference - it stirs people in a direction different from the common Western propaganda narrative, which helps bring down this bubble. When it is over and they come out and say "hey, you know what? what actually happened in Ukraine was this and that and this and that...", it would be 10 times less impactful.

[–] SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 5 months ago

This video was just a whole lot of nothing, and they could’ve done so much good by releasing one that went into what the actual conflict was about, and yet… we got this. We need people talking about the true nature of this war more than ever and, just like you said, it will be useless when all is said and done. It needs to happen now or there is no point. I know there are some academics who have talked about it (Ivan Katchanovski, my beloved) but their platforms and reach aren’t nearly as accessible or widespread as people like the Deprogram guys. It just sucks…

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[–] LeniX@lemmygrad.ml 32 points 5 months ago (3 children)

Dogshit video, to be honest.

Multiple critical pieces of the entire puzzle are missing, like almost everything the US had done before 2014, the coup and the fact that it was a US/CIA-orchestrated Nazi coup, the fascists themselves and their massive influence, the fact that it was Ukraine who's been provoking Russia for 8 long years, despite the Russian government trying to find a diplomatic solution. The fact that it was Ukraine who indiscriminately shelled civilians in the Donbas, that the people of Crimea rose up themselves, and that was evident by a plethora of polls from the 2000s, where even Ukrainian polling companies admitted the majority of the people (over 70%) in Crimea would like to not just secede but join the RF. Too much "both sides"-ing. I get that they are trying to dance around the truth and create a lib-friendly and babyleft-friendly picture, but my personal take on it is we're way past that point, given that the vast majority of Westerners want this conflict to end - it's literally tailing the masses. How can a person look at what is happening in Gaza, at the fact that the US is arming "israel" to the teeth, which makes them enablers of genocide and not "protectors of democracy", and not understand that they're not "protecting democracy" in Ukraine either? As one comrade aptly pointed out - "what is the common denominator between Palestine, Ukraine, Taiwan, Syria and Libya?". It should be clear by now.

Is JT aware of the true nature of this conflict? I'm inclined to think rather "yes" than "no", but I'm very unsure. Hakim definitely dropped some hints. Yugo - IDK, really. But, sadly, they are silent. Also - they have an Arab to tell them a bit about Palestine, I guess if they had a communist from Ukraine they would at least be more knowledgeable when it comes to Russia-Ukraine stuff.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 19 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children)

I guess if they had a communist from Ukraine they would at least be more knowledgeable

Even that is not a guarantee. Because they did have a Russian "communist" on their program at one point and they learned absolutely nothing. Because the "communist" they chose to invite was some kind of ancom or Trot with a vendetta against the KPRF who basically did nothing but repeat western talking points about the Russian government.

It was as if they purposely picked a Russian "communist" who would just come on to validate every prejudice that western leftists have about Russia. I imagine it wouldn't be hard to find a Ukrainian "communist" to do the same.

Because unfortunately, most of the actual communists in Ukraine are now in prison, dead, or have long since defected to the LDPR. So if they were to actually find a real Ukrainian communist they would run the risk of being accused of platforming a pro-Russian "traitor" to Ukraine.

[–] LeniX@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 5 months ago

Yeah, true. I meant if it was a well-educated ML with nuanced takes, not some anti-Russia, anti-China ultra or something. But something tells me they will chicken out if they get the chance.

My guess is they pre-approve not only guests but the talking points in the videos they make. And they did put the Syomin guy into the spotlight twice. You know how it goes - "fool me once..."

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[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (20 children)

It is the single worst video any of the Deprogram trio have ever put out. It misses the mark completely. I am not kidding but this was so bad that i may just unsubscribe from all of them, because there is something seriously wrong with people who call themselves communists and put out a video about the Ukraine conflict that comes across as if its only sources of information for the past ten (because this goes back to 2014) years have been the western media's propaganda about the conflict.

It's effectively peddling a pro-Ukraine narrative and outright lies on several instances, and the fact that they refuse to even talk about how much of a Nazi state Ukraine is basically edges into borderline Nazi apologetics territory.

Sorry but this video was an irredeemable clusterfuck and if they want to salvage any shred of their reputation they should immediately take it down and post an apology.

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[–] davel@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I only just pressed play, and the intro text seems to have some relevant caveats.

For the sake of brevity, this video will focus solely on the state of war and not the internal politics of the involved parties, such as the influence of far-right elements in Ukraine or the reception of mass mobilization in Russia.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 23 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

That is not a "caveat", it's an announcement that the video you are about to watch will be worthless as a serious analysis of the conflict.

Trying to talk about this conflict without discussing the internal politics of Ukraine is like talking about WW2 without discussing the "internal politics of Germany" at the time. Imagine making a video about WW2 and not mentioning the Nazis a single time. Absurd. This video was a joke.

[–] LeniX@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 5 months ago

100% agree, brilliant analogy

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 30 points 5 months ago

This is hands down the worst video i have ever seen from these guys. It is so ignorant and so steeped in western mainstream media propaganda on this conflict it could have been made by Vox or the Daily Beast and you would not notice the difference.

[–] SovietCollie@lemmygrad.ml 27 points 5 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

Fuckin' Boy Boy had a better video then this on the Russia-Ukraine War only 2 months after it started, they were actually willing to explain such things as the conditions that lead to it being inevitable and the USA's major role in instigating it, it has some pitfalls with both-sideing a bit and missing a few core details. But despite that, it's overall more informative and one of the better videos that I saw during the initial months of the war.

Last I checked, they're doing fine.

[–] SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Thank you for linking this, I had no idea they made a video about it! I will watch it as soon as I can.

Edit: so the comments on that video are really bad, holy shit…

[–] REEEEvolution@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Most westerners are as brainwashed as they believe north koreans to be.

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[–] Blursty@lemmygrad.ml 27 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The "...this doesn't justify the Russian invasion..." crap is pathetic. Of course it does, it's literally what was used to justify it?! It's such a shit framing.

[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 15 points 5 months ago (2 children)

I get frustrated generally when people who should know better revert to christian-brain and make a faction's moral correctness or incorrectness the be-all end-all of a conversation. Like dude, JT, you're a communist, you know that all states unavoidably traffic in morally bad actions because of what they are, that material concerns of security and survival overrule conversations about good or bad, right or wrong. You know this, stop being naive. Or if you're playing to your liberal viewers, stop coddling their naivete, they need to learn what anti-imperial struggle looks like.

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[–] KrupskayaPraxis@lemmygrad.ml 25 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

It's like he's afraid to sound too pro-Russia so he tones it down. I think that communists need to be more open about the true nature of this proxy war otherwise we will never convince anybody.

[–] MasterDeeLuke@lemmygrad.ml 24 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

When I see a thumbnail that shows multiple red arrows pointing at a piece of land, my expectations for that video immediately get set to rock bottom.

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[–] Skipper1402@lemmygrad.ml 18 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Someone just asked him on his server and he replied as to why he didn’t want to go into the politics of the conflict

[–] ComradeSalad@lemmygrad.ml 24 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (7 children)

“I don’t have final say over decisions”.

Is that not a blatant admission of selling out? He’s just straight admitted that he’s just a face for the camera and doesn’t have the authority to make content decisions on his own channel. He only has 2 employees that work as editors for him, so who’s making the decisions if not him?

That seems like a damning nail in the coffin for all the accusations of deprogram and JT selling out.

I remember getting downvoted to hell several months ago for saying that JT was selling out and the liberal aesthetics were becoming undeniable. Guess I wasn’t wrong.

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[–] SovietReporter@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 5 months ago (1 children)

You guys should comment on his video and let him know what you think.

[–] SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 5 months ago

I definitely encourage everyone here to comment, if they’d like, as the comments so far are just sort of meh. It would be nice to add important context the he omitted.

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