Fully expected. Didn't Zelensky say at some point that they are looking at Israel as a model for what a victorious post-war Ukraine will be like?
this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2023
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the_dunk_tank
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It's the dunk tank.
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Please tell me you have a source for that.
Libs will try to tell you ukraine isn’t a nazi state btw
How do you mean that?
Defending another fascist state
Is for you fascism and nazism / hitlerism the same? And similar to settler colonialism? Israel's genocidal settler colonialism is not Nazism. It isn't Hitlerism either. Though Ukraine's military political complex is filled with Fascists and (Neo-)Nazis.
Splitting hairs about fascism is a good use of everyone's time
Marx famously was known for not being pedantic about use of terms and phrases.
Israel can't have Hitlerism, though Fascist thoughts and elements of Ethnonationalist support are not a rare thing. Being more or less clear with terms matters as it is a necessary differentiating element for material conditions and intersectional pressures that happen. Antifascism that we do for decades also means to not equate Nazism with things that aren't Nazism.
It is a problem when Israel and Nazi Germany are equated. It is also antisemitic and this community tries to be both (un)critically supportive of liberation fights (by less than progressive forces instead of only ideal Marxists) in Palestine and the Levant and not to ignore antisemitism.
I do really did the outdated voice recording of Lenin in regards to Anti Jewish pogroms. Lenin's real voice reading the speech
yeah sure, ok
don't you think it deserves inspection if it's done in good faith?
I think if there is a difference it doesn't serve us to be imprecise, as it gives room for libs to wriggle out of it. I think it is pretty bad optics and needless edgelording to label Israel as Nazi when it could be labelled as a fascist ethnostate very reasonably. Jew hating is a huge part of Nazi thought. Clearly it is not a part of Israel's.
I don't have the answer to the question. Maybe I'm susceptible to jargon but I'm not seeing anyone actually countering them.
Call it fascism and move on.
The only significant difference between Nazism and settler colonialism is that the murderous colonizers have to travel a longer distance before starting the murder.
Funny but incorrect quip. The German imperial project ended in the genocide against Ovaherero and Nama, with the aim to exterminate them completely. The Jewish genocide in the "Occupied Territories" is aimed not at physical extermination of all the people in Gaza. In any case the actions and deeds really don't have to be compared in terms of "significance" (as moralistic judging term). They can and ought to be understood in themselves and the similarities in practices can be looked at. Equating the actions of Israel and Nazi Germany is diminishing the holocaust. You can critique the state without doing that.
The material base and the white supremacist super structure in terms of the German or South African project are much different to the Israeli one if you look at before 1945, or between then and the 1973 war. However I would wish for as principled stances against the USA and that is sorely lacking.
Yeah im not gonna debate this ur right or whatever
You’re right, it’s not specifically Nazism. Japanese fascists and Italian fascists were not Nazis just because they were allies. They were their own brand of fascists. Israel likely does not approve of Ukraine’s nazism, but they also don’t care enough to condemn them unless Ukraine does something really stupid like defend Bandera’s role in the massacre of Jews, which has been done several times. They are all fascists who disagree with things that don’t really matter to their goals.
Israel should also pre-emptively defend itself against Azov and bomb those Nazis too.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news
I honestly don't even know what to make of this.
Eh, I'm not a fan of the Ukrainian government, but considering how much they depend on Western aid, they pretty much made this statement under threat. Taking the side of Palestine would be a big shining off road to many of their backers and would have been impossible even if they were really great guys.
Not giving the US and Europe a convenient excuse to cut off aid by "supporting terrorism" or whatever is not very high on my list of things to critisize them for, considering how often they have done the wrong thing when they actually had other options that would not hurt them.
Doing a both sides would've been the best idea tbh
Don't know that they could have gotten away with even that. Some of their backers are looking for any excuse to get out.
Once again, this is not in support of them. I fully believe that they truly do support the fascist side and would have done so regardless of pressure from the West. But in this case they actually were under pressure to say exactly this, so I'll save my scorn for when they do this kind of thing unbidden and with no stakes, which is - to be clear- often.